Floating Bridge Angle - Intonation with 11/49 string set

[xuoham]

[PTChristopher]

>>> WOW!! Who knew??

Yeah, "perfect intonation" is a concept mostly held by having just enough info to be dangerous. Real music is made otherwise.

I had the 'outrageous fortune' (as they say) to work in the main Berklee building when I started out. Then my girlfriend bought this wreck of a Mason and Hamlin upright grand. So I went to the expert piano tuners and got a crash course in piano tuning to deal with her piano. They knew me and my work, so the crash course did the trick. Great experience with a great chance to look at guitars differently as well.

Go figure.

By the way, do not ever offer to re-tune an old piano unless you are ready for several days of work, broken strings, and heart-pounding periods as you haul the whole thing up to pitch (and then again the next day as it all falls back) and hope to not hear anything go ka-ploowie.

Chris

[xuoham]

So, personally and besides intonation set up, do you "sweeten" - à la Peterson- your tuning when you tune your guitar ?

[PTChristopher]

Paul,

To tediously repeat: I am saying what I do, why I do it, and maybe throw in a little of the physics as well. But other people may have very different views on any or all of this - and you might very well find their alternate views extremely helpful.

>>> do you "sweeten" - à la Peterson- your tuning when you tune your guitar

I have a small Gretsch acoustic that came painted green with pictures of cowboys and alien flying saucers on it. This one I 'sweeten' slightly in tuning to help compensate for some minor errors in the guitar.

Otherwise I definitely do not do any Peterson type sweetening.

The idea of sweetened tuning (of several sorts; Peterson did not really invent it) is to offset some typical guitar problems and situations we run into with the tempered scale and common guitar chord shapes.

I find that if the guitar is really set up well (including the nut, which is very important to low playing position intonation) then the "sweetening" is not really needed.

My idea of "best fit" is to consider the fret height, playing style, and tuning method of the actual guitar and player in question, then make the inevitable compromise decisions based on this.

All in my opinion. There is no single magic answer.

Chris

[oldane]

I have been following this thread with interest - and somewhat puzzled. It seems to me that the only way a bridge could need to be slated so the treble strings are longer than the bass strings is if the string action is higher - much higher - at the treble side than at the bass side. This can be caused by maladjustments at the bridge or at the nut. Of course, a monstrously twisted/warped neck could also cause all kind af intonation problems, but the photos provided by the OP doesn't indicate that this is the case here.

It seems to me that the most likely - with due respect - is that the OP has missed/misunderstood something. We can give all the great advice we want, but if we are not on the same page as the OP, concept wise, it's all in vain. Thus, the advice of seeking hands-on setup help from a professional guitar tecnician is sound.

[xuoham]

Well, PT Christopher solved it to a great extent by his explanations.
My mistake was to focus only on the 12th fret compared to the harmonics.
Now my bridge is perpendicular, and maybe intonation is not "spot on" at the 12th fret, but it is overall acceptable from fret 1 to fret 17.
And this is according to the precision of my tuner; to my ears it just feels good and that is probably the essential.
One weird thing remains though : the 6th string its too flat from 12th fret all the way to the upper frets. And i definitely can hear it. It's kind of sudden: 12th fret is still acceptable while 15th fret is no no no.
Maybe that's what actually led me to shorten its scale by moving the bridge.
On the other hand, with this guitar i am very happy from the beginning with the justness of intonation at the lower frets. I have bad memories of "perfectly" tuned guitars that sound completely off with some notes too sharp when playing some chords around the 3rd fret.
I sure will consult my guy, i actually have to see him for some pick up wiring on a flat top, but except for this 6th string, i feel i found a nice compromise that yields satisfaction from 1st to 17th fret.
Good, because i love this guitar, my first archtop, after many semi-hollow. ^ _ ^

[PTChristopher]

Single defective strings are more common than we might suspect. Try another low E string.

When I used to have to do dozens of setups, I would just change a string if something was even a little different than what I expected in the bridge compensation. It was surprising to see how often the string was the problem.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

[Oldane] >>> I have been following this thread with interest

Man, you have got to get out more.

>>> It seems to me that the only way a bridge could need to be slated so the treble strings are longer than the bass strings is if the string action is higher - much higher - at the treble side than at the bass side.

Yep. And this is almost impossible to do.

>>> We can give all the great advice we want, but if we are not on the same page as the OP, concept wise, it's all in vain.

Ah, you discover my secret evil forum agenda. Keep the "ball in the air" via discussion and see if we can all settle on the same page in the end.

In my opinion/experience, the mechanics and physics are pretty simple. It is the human element (ABSOLUTELY including my own mistakes and prejudices as Jorge would note) that takes some work.

If we stay calm, let actual facts be important (what a concept,...), and keep the friendly discussion flowing, most problems get sorted out.

In my opinion.

Chris

[xuoham]

Single defective strings are more common than we might suspect. Try another low E string.

When I used to have to do dozens of setups, I would just change a string if something was even a little different than what I expected in the bridge compensation. It was surprising to see how often the string was the problem.

Chris

And the goes on !
Thanks a lot !

[PTChristopher]

Hey Paul,

Great to hear that your guitar is making more sense now.

Chris

[xuoham]

Chris, this is so true about the human element !

Definitely in my case it seems that i was the problem, ha !
Hahaha !

Holy cow, this thread has been so precious for me ...

[PTChristopher]

>>> Definitely in my case it seems that i was the problem, ha !

I would not describe it that way. A problem comes up, and anyone who participates in the discussion and solution (or improvement in the situation anyway) benefits in one way or another. That's how I see it anyway.

Chris

[Patrick2]

I'm really amazed at how much of an obsession tweaking a guitar to the point where it is perfectly in tune with itself . . . is to some people. It's like sending Dorothy after the witch's broom.

My tech, Ronaldo . . or Aaron . . sets the floating bridge intonation as close to perfect as they can . . definitely employing the method explained by PTChris of measuring from the front (finger board) edge of the nut to dead center of the 12th fret . . then doubling that, precisely, to the initial setting of the floating bridge. Then tuning the guitar and fine tuning the bridge position. DONE!! I play the guitar!! If I do stumble across the rare slightly out of pitch note.. . . who care??? I certainly don't. I really doubt that I could detect it anyway . . . unless I spend more of my time looking for it than I do playing.

[PTChristopher]

I can understand someone wanting to optimize a given adjustment.

The odd thing is when someone goes crazy to set a given parameter exactly, while oblivious to the errors elsewhere that are unaddressed.

Chris

[oldane]

[Oldane] >>> I have been following this thread with interest

Man, you have got to get out more.

Oh, but I have been out lately - I haven't posted as much here as I used to. But now it's weekend - you know, doing nothing useful, relaxing in front of the PC with a Laphroaig in hand.

If we stay calm, let actual facts be important (what a concept,...)....

If we sticked to facts, we would have no forum. Mumble jumble, woodoo and superstition - that's what keeps it alive.

[vejesse]

If you crown the frets by hand the tangent point of the fret top will never be consistent from fret to fret. The very top of the fret will fall by a very small amount to one side or the other, and that plus the lack of consistency in fret placement and guitar strings makes a difference you can hear. I know some people will say quit wasting time worrying about all this and practice more but our brains are pretty well tuned to hearing the placement of the third in a chord - look at the different keyboard temperament schemes employed.

But at least there's a relatively easy way to get past all this hand wringing about an out of tune wooden bridge. - carve a custom compensated wooden bridge saddle for the particular string set you use. I'm surprised more players don't look into having this done because it really cuts back on the aggravation. Luthiers: The Don Teeter books have instruction about this. When I'm setting up an archtop that I've acquired, after getting the frets straightened out it's the next thing I do.

[Jabberwocky]

Dollars to doughnuts, his tech is gonna remove the felt pad and point to it as the problem. I'm a gambling superstitious man; spit into my hairy palms, rub them together, roll up the sleeves to the elbows, eyeball the damn thing and let's get down and dirty.

Logic and reasoning have no place in a redneck's world.

[Patrick2]

If you crown the frets by hand the tangent point of the fret top will never be consistent from fret to fret. The very top of the fret will fall by a very small amount to one side or the other, and that plus the lack of consistency in fret placement and guitar strings makes a difference you can hear. I know some people will say quit wasting time worrying about all this and practice more but our brains are pretty well tuned to hearing the placement of the third in a chord - look at the different keyboard temperament schemes employed.

But at least there's a relatively easy way to get past all this hand wringing about an out of tune wooden bridge. - carve a custom compensated wooden bridge saddle for the particular string set you use. I'm surprised more players don't look into having this done because it really cuts back on the aggravation. Luthiers: The Don Teeter books have instruction about this. When I'm setting up an archtop that I've acquired, after getting the frets straightened out it's the next thing I do.

Yeah . . . right. If you're playing a 4/4 with quarter notes at 60 bpm . . then you might be able to discern an intonation issue. Otherwise, just tune up and play the f*****g thing.

[vejesse]

60 bpm... you call that fast?

[Patrick2]

60 bpm... you call that fast?

uhmmm........ I think you might have missed my point.?.?

[vejesse]

No, of course I get your point. It's a timeless piece of advice, the idea being if people spent less time obsessing about their gear and more time practicing they'd be better players.

Here's my point. Look at all the generic wooden archtop bridges out there that nobody bothered to fit to the top, plus they don't intonate correctly for the strings. If you have a good ear it can drive you nuts.

[Patrick2]

No, of course I get your point. It's a timeless piece of advice, the idea being if people spent less time obsessing about their gear and more time practicing they'd be better players.

Here's my point. Look at all the generic wooden archtop bridges out there that nobody bothered to fit to the top and plus they don't intonate correctly for the strings. If you have a good ear it can drive you nuts.

Well, I think what I'm saying here . . . no . . infact, what I know I'm saying here . . is that unless someone is playing so slowly as quarter notes in a 4/4 signature, at 60 bpm . . . they're gonna be hard pressed to tell if intonation is off a mere iota. And, if their ear is so good as to discern that fractional indifference, then my attitude is. . . blow through it and keep on playing.

If your playing is "serious" . . . the slightest intonational discrepency won't mean a damned thing. On the other hand, if your playing is lame . . . then, the slightest intonational indifference . . . . won't mean a damned thing either.

[PTChristopher]

I guess what I think I want to mean to try to say is:

- The bridge compensation is only a party of "intonation". Setting this compensation "perfectly" will not result in perfect intonation.

- A truly awful wooden bridge, like the ones used on Guild guitars (and thousands of great pieces of recorded music with no problem) can make it worth a new bridge. But many wooden bridges are really close enough, especially when not blindly set for only the E strings at the 12th.

- I understand about fret crowns for sure, but this is a relatively minor issue in my opinion compared to nut details (height and position) and string imperfections.

In the OP Paul's case I would not suggest a new bridge unless he wants to use a plain G with fairly light strings.

Chris

[vejesse]

Oh, I see. Regardless of tempos, at this point it seems so simple to me. If you have a wooden bridge and the intonation is off it can make your guitar sound out of tune. If that bothers you, know that it's possible to make that problem go away. If it doesn't bother you Patrick2 that's great. One less thing to worry about.

[Patrick2]

Oh, I see. Regardless of tempos, at this point it seems so simple to me. If you have a wooden bridge and the intonation is off it can make your guitar sound out of tune. If that bothers you, know that it's possible to make that problem go away. If it doesn't bother you Patrick2 that's great. One less thing to worry about.

Think about these two things; how many recordings, by the greats, do you think were made with guitars that were PERFECTLY in tune with themselves? The number that immediately comes to my mind is . . . . zero!! None!!

Now, how much of a difference did that make?? How easily was that intonation discrepency detectable? And if detectable . . . . who cares??? Listen for the music . . . not the imperfections in the intonation of the guitar/notes.