Fender struggles to survive

**Al_F** · 10-01-2012, 10:21 AM

A good argument can be made that it was the cultural decay of 1950's of electrified blues becoming rocking and roll that made Fender the company they became at the expense of jazz in a way. Imagine what happened to saxophone sales.

**Patrick2** · 10-01-2012, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Solo Flight

From today's NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/bu....html?hpw&_r=0

One of the more interesting tidbits is that the Guitar Center is controlled by Bain Capital. It was sold to Bain by Larry Thomas, who is now Fender's CEO.

Gee. . . a negative artical in The New York Times about Bain Capital . . . . a month before their messianic boy is trying to defeat the guy who used to run Bain Capital, in an election for the Oval Office.?.? Now there's a real shocker!! Maybe next week they'll show where Staples is using trees from a forbidden source to manufacture their rheems of printing paper. LOLOLOL

The NYT should do our country a big favor and convert to publishing a magazine like Playboy or something. Then, at least the photos might have a degree of reality and truthfulness . . . but, then again . . there's air brushing and Photo Shop . . . so they'd probably twist reality with that too.

**Solo Flight** · 10-01-2012, 11:14 AM

The article is about Fender, not Bain Capital. And it wasn't critical, nor a puff piece, of either company. I just thought it was interesting since Bain Capital (and companies like them) hardly made the news before this election cycle.

**Spook410** · 10-01-2012, 12:18 PM

Bain was a minor side note and treated as such in the article. Weston Presidio's role was rightfully emphasized. They would like to cash out and it's hard to sell at a premium when the future growth appears to be an uphill fight.

I think Fender is a good company and will be around a long time. It won't be easy and I don't know how big they will be and I don't know how much the company will be worth, but I predict in 25 yrs I will still be able to buy their products.

**Spook410** · 10-01-2012, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Al_F

A good argument can be made that it was the cultural decay of 1950's of electrified blues becoming rocking and roll that made Fender the company they became at the expense of jazz in a way. Imagine what happened to saxophone sales.

Liked this observation. Maybe a little more complex in that a severely oppressed American demographic exported music to the cultural decay in post-WW2 Britain still reeling from the austerity imposed from war recovery. Bunch of English white kids listening to Chess records and doing a mediocre job of emulating changed everything.

**Patrick2** · 10-01-2012, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Solo Flight

The article is about Fender, not Bain Capital. And it wasn't critical, nor a puff piece, of either company.

I just thought it was interesting since Bain Capital (and companies like them) hardly made the news before this election cycle.

Solo: In my edit . . I separated the 2 sentences you wrote so you might be able to see, as clearly as I do, that those sentences are in direct conflict with each other. As your second sentence points out very accurately . . . and is at the heart of my initial post on this . . . . it is indeed interesting . . . isn't it??

Judging by the commentary in this thread . . and another just like it over on TGP . .. the write of this article has SUBLIMINALLY accomplished exactly what was intended. The NYT is as in the tank for our current president and against his opponent as is the other 90% of the news media.

Do you really think it's coincidential that a news journalist just decised to look into a Bain related company 40 day out from the election?? Are Fender and/or GC really on the radar of the print news medium?? Does a journilist just wake up one day and decide . . . "I think I'll look into Fender Musical Instruments and Guitar Center"??

**riovine** · 10-01-2012, 12:46 PM

Some very good points raised about decline in live music, many more options for our entertainment time etc. I remember when I was in high school in the 70's it was a big deal when the latest supergroup rock band came to town, so much so that it even spawned a viable local cover band scene. Now it seems like the rock band has gone the way of the big band and is viewed in a similar light by todays kids as we viewed the big bands during rock's heyday. To put it more succinctly and trivially, starting with Elvis:

playing guitar = getting chicks
hormone ridden teenage boys = want to get chicks

therefore:

hormone ridden teenage boys = want to play guitar

nowadays:

playing guitar != getting chicks

therefore:

hormone ridden teenage boys != want to play guitar

It seems like the guitar industry is kind of living off the fumes of baby boomer nostalgia. I wonder what it will be like in 10-20+ years when we all start checking out, and the newer generation not having grown up with that romantic connection to guitars. It seems like there would have to be the inevitable contraction and/or consolidation. As someone pointed out in a previous post, there was a time when the accordion was a very popular instrument. As in all things, change is inevitable.

**zigzag** · 10-01-2012, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

The NYT is as in the tank for our current president and against his opponent as is the other 90% of the news media.

Are you kidding? Republicans don't even like Republicans...

**Patrick2** · 10-01-2012, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by zigzag

Are you kidding? Republicans don't even like Republicans...

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL . . . .

Hey man . . . you're interrupting Rush Limbaugh's monologue. . . I gotta get back to the radio. C-Ya.

**Solo Flight** · 10-01-2012, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Do you really think it's coincidential that a news journalist just decised to look into a Bain related company 40 day out from the election?? Are Fender and/or GC really on the radar of the print news medium?? Does a journilist just wake up one day and decide . . . "I think I'll look into Fender Musical Instruments and Guitar Center"??

Not sure if you're really serious or just read a different article. It mentions a bunch of different music and Wall St. companies (including Bain, in passing) and is an article about one aspect of the changing music industry. But if you think every mention of Bain Capital is a subliminal dig at the GOP nominee, so be it - you can believe whatever you want. Investment companies do what they do - there shouldn't be any shame in that. And if a large iconic guitar maker turns to an investment company for cash, no shame in that either. It's a business.

I probably did misspeak when I said that investment companies haven't been in the news much before this election. They've most probably always been in the business pages of the Times and the WSJ and other papers. This article just happened to catch my eye because it was a story about a guitar company.

**PTChristopher** · 10-01-2012, 05:06 PM

Wow gents.

I understand that politics gets injected in some subtle ways, and I rather see Patrick's point about the NYT agenda.

I also think most of us are able to see this agenda and still enjoy the article and discussion with out being somehow fooled by the NYT.

The Fender and GC situation, and the understandable motivation of investors, is all very interesting to me. But maybe we can kick it around without assigning villain status to any of the parties involved?

(Well except for MY preferred targets like Gibson lacquer formulators, tone cap quacks, and maybe that Rachel Ray lady.)

Chris

**Spook410** · 10-01-2012, 05:59 PM

Hmm.. pretty subtle as agendas go.

Maybe we could get FoxNews to do a piece on Gibson next..

**PTChristopher** · 10-01-2012, 06:08 PM

Hi Spook,

"Agenda" was a very poor choice of word on my part.

But more accuracy gets long winded.

I mean that I rather see a conservative (for lack of a better word) view that the NYT often seems to protect the ethos of organizations they see as politically aligned with themselves. At the same time, they freely cast the names of organizations with which they do not see political alignment into situations of controversy, or at least seemingly compromise-ridden positions.

I see nothing wrong with the NYT doing this, but I also think that someone noting this is a very reasonable comment in the general flow of ideas in a forum.

Or maybe I could just have said "slant" or "apparent bias" instead of "agenda".

I am not much of a "Red vs. Blue" political enthusiast at all. But I do respect those who note implicit bias and think it reasonable to mention it.

But man, that Rachel Ray is irritating. I mean, "de-lish"? Bleechhhppfttt.

Chris

**stevedenver** · 10-01-2012, 06:19 PM

you know
all the other stuff aside

like the music industry,
perhaps we will see a change
not only in distribution -away from GC type mega stores
back to smaller shops

and again
as mentioned
i like they idea of specialized fender, martin gibson etc-

but small and quality, low volume isnt how to make money
and i think the days of having a company executive and board/shareholders etc who love the product more than dividends and returns isnt likely
you see this mostly in fmaily companies-usually the first or second generatoins-sometimes longer

oddly, though often vilified, perhaps henry of gibson may possibly be the best fit in this type of end-of-days scenario
he is closest to the family business-gibson is still closely held-very closely held as far as know -he too may indeed be needing outside help -flood, fines, suppliers -who knows

i like fenders-
never had a fender product i didnt love and keep-well 'cept an very old jag

i didnt read the article politically
i know about the NYT and the bent
but i agree, the article was , to me, more about fender and the players involved and prospects and competition from abroad

we still live in the golden age of guitars
dont think its running on 'fumes' of boomers at all-

and i think the analogy to the 30's mando craze is ....a mis-placed historical analogy-not even close culturally speaking -guitars have been big since pre 1900 among the masses

anyone who plays mando (and thats me!!)
would tell you as far as simple versatility
and accompanying a voice
they arent even close
ukelele..now we can talk......

**fumblefingers** · 10-01-2012, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Al_F

A good argument can be made that it was the cultural decay of 1950's of electrified blues becoming rocking and roll that made Fender the company they became at the expense of jazz in a way. Imagine what happened to saxophone sales.

a fair point. and the folkies too. no disagreement from me.

but then rock and roll had harmony and melody, it was just simplified relative to the popular music of earlier times.

**bohemian46** · 10-02-2012, 12:51 AM

"it's called cultural decay, folks. don't look for it to end anytime soon. "
So true.. and very sadly so.

And as to the Fender article, Bain connections, GC et al..
is this not obvious as election day approaches?
Clumsy and transparent "reporting".

And on that note.. The British Invasion and specifically the Beatles virtually destroyed the advance of American popular music... too bad.

**docbop** · 10-02-2012, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by Al_F

A good argument can be made that it was the cultural decay of 1950's of electrified blues becoming rocking and roll that made Fender the company they became at the expense of jazz in a way. Imagine what happened to saxophone sales.

You forget Jazz was going through a popular period in the 60's with Ramsey Lewis, Grant Green, Cannonball and others playing funky danceable jazz.

Also why would you call Blues evolving into R&B to Rock & Roll "cultural decay"? Was the Big Bands evolving into the small Jazz combo's cultural decay. I see it just as evolution.