Revisiting the power of amp modeling

**Jim Soloway** · 07-23-2012, 02:56 PM

A few months ago I started a thread on amp modeling based on my on going experiences with my Line 6 Pod HD. There seemed to be a lot of interest so I thought it would be appropriate to revisit the topic.

I was working on a new patch today based on a Fender Twin. I was really happy with the way if came together, especially for the long scale guitar that I keep tuned down to D. I went back and forth between that my two other other primary patches. One is based on the Black Face Deluxe while the other is based on the Ampeg Flip Top running through a Deluxe 1x12 cab. I ended up recording a similar passage playing through all three patches and I think it shows pretty well how nuanced you can get with this technology. What you're hearing is just the raw track of the modeler running straight to the recording software. There is no EQ or effects added.

EDIT 07/24/12: I've added a fourth version using a Tweed Bassman. After trying all the cab options, I ended up with the 1x12 Celest 12H. Here's the clip.

AmpTestC001TweedCelestion-07-24-12 by Jim Soloway on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

**boles** · 07-23-2012, 03:21 PM

That is some excellent work, Jim. Thanks for taking the time to make that comparison and, for the record -- in a thread long, long, ago and gladly far away -- I loved your "pick sound" analysis you took the time to put together for us. You made your point precise and clear and left no doubt or argument. It was suck a perfect moment of "point proven."

I was always a Fender tube amp guy with my Strats and Teles and now that I'm a Gibson Jazz boy, I'm finding the modeling amps really interesting and effective. I'm currently using a Vox Valvetronix on the "AC30HH" setting and it provides a clean and slightly creamy Jazz tone at a really low price. I like it better than my Fender Princeton Reverb for playing Jazz! The Valvetronix will hold me until I get my Henriksen. SMILE!

**msr13** · 07-23-2012, 03:56 PM

They all sound great! But, man, does that Twin patch sound unbelievably good.

**WilliamScott** · 07-23-2012, 04:48 PM

I think I might like the Twin best, but maybe only because I heard it first and it was great and the the next ones were not that if you know what I mean. Nice demonstration of how amp colors can change the music.

**feet** · 07-23-2012, 07:05 PM

been listening to these clips over and over and now you have me considering a pod. for that, you should be ashamed of yourself.

been mulling a changing in my recording process/abilites and i never considered one of these. i had been debating field recorders and daw controllers and hard disk recorders instead.

i mostly play clean and i love my amps and a pod feels too much like cheating. please convince me otherwise. can't deny the convenience, or the ability to get clean tracks with no latency. but i came up from the "old school", with mics and all. but that's getting to be too time and space consuming at home.

as always, your playing and touch and guitars all that, too.

**Jim Soloway** · 07-23-2012, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by feet

been listening to these clips over and over and now you have me considering a pod. for that, you should be ashamed of yourself.

been mulling a changing in my recording process/abilites and i never considered one of these. i had been debating field recorders and daw controllers and hard disk recorders instead.

i mostly play clean and i love my amps and a pod feels too much like cheating. please convince me otherwise. can't deny the convenience, or the ability to get clean tracks with no latency. but i came up from the "old school", with mics and all. but that's getting to be too time and space consuming at home.

as always, your playing and touch and guitars all that, too.

Call me and we can talk about it. I'll be around tomorrow. It's been one of the best things that's happened to me in a long time but it took me some time to really make it work for me. I have no secrets on this. I'm happy to share everything I've learned with anyone who wants to know.

And thanks to all for the comments. I love the way the Tin model sounds with this guitar. And I think that's an important factor: I programmed it specifically to work with this guitar. That's one of the really cool things about modeling. I now have one rig with three different models that work best with each of my three guitars.

**Philco** · 07-23-2012, 07:24 PM

Jim, I hope you get the chance to try

Fractal Audio Systems Axe-Fx II Guitar Processor, Preamp, effects processor, amp modeler, guitar effects

one day. These units, although quite expensive, are rapidly becoming popular.

I have not tried one yet but my friends tell me that this unit has taken modelling to the next level.

As with the Line6 products they are skewed toward a more rock cliental but there are lots of parameters and models to play with.

Worth a try if possible.
I am in no way affiliated.

**feet** · 07-23-2012, 07:46 PM

i think my biggest fear is how the tracks sit in a mix, especially with other instruments and vocals. do they play along well with plugins? have had really bad experiences with that in the past, but that was then and this is very much now.

another problem for me is the wealth of stuff available at the sub 500ish price point. its easy for me to turn down an eleven or axe fx because that's a huge commitment i really don't want to make. but the pod, like the roland and zoom recorders/controllers i was looking at aren't that pricey. then again, they all fill a different need and i don't want to buy a million gadgets, either. nor do i really want to get all into programming and fussing around with sounds and settings, as fun as that is (as as great as it turned out for you). i know my gear already, and recording is such an arduous and horrifying process for me. i just want it over with quickly, however i go about it.

i think i liked the ampeg the best, but it also sounded the least "real" to me. go figure.

i sleep days, so i might not be around, but its kind of you to offer. i did want to acknowledge that much.

**fep** · 07-23-2012, 08:09 PM

Sounds great Jim.

I can't decide which I like best, it's between the two fenders.

Another point I'd like to make regarding modeling with a FRFR speaker and playing live; I play a jazz hollow body electric and a Godin multiac nylon string (piezo pickups), and sometime guitar synth with the Godin also. You can have your favorite electric patch next to a 'Direct' patch and easily switch guitars and have them both sound great all through the same unit and speakers.

**Jim Soloway** · 07-23-2012, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Philco

Jim, I hope you get the chance to try

Fractal Audio Systems Axe-Fx II Guitar Processor, Preamp, effects processor, amp modeler, guitar effects

one day. These units, although quite expensive, are rapidly becoming popular.

I have not tried one yet but my friends tell me that this unit has taken modelling to the next level.

As with the Line6 products they are skewed toward a more rock cliental but there are lots of parameters and models to play with.

Worth a try if possible.
I am in no way affiliated.

I have played through an AxeFx, both the original version and the initial release of version II. I found the original version to be too confusing. I'm much happier doing most of my programming through software and it was entirely done through the hardware interface. AxeFx II though is brilliant. Lots of wonderful sounds and very easy to program. Sadly though, it is well beyond my budget and I vastly prefer the form factor of my small desktop Pod. As for the orientation, all modeling is skewed towards rock but there are so many options that without even touching most of the parameters or models, there's a wealth of options for those of us who prefer our tone on the more pristine side.

**docbop** · 07-23-2012, 10:16 PM

I like the BF Deluxe the best. Thought is was a bit more defined sounding from low to high.

**ruger9** · 07-24-2012, 01:12 PM

They all sound great. I think I like the Twin the least. I have a Fender GDEC 3 Thirty, and have been trying to get some cool jazz tones (the stock jazz presets suck)... I actually ended up on a Fender ACOUSTIC amp model, seems to bring out more "wood" than the electric guitar models, but now you've got me thinking I should re-try some of the others and spend more time tweaking.

**Kenneth** · 07-24-2012, 01:38 PM

Maybe my ear is not what it should be, but I like the Ampeg model. Playing is wonderful, as usual, Jim.

**boatheelmusic** · 07-24-2012, 02:46 PM

All -

I'm not a schill, but the Fender Mustang series, with the FUSE software, lets you model a vast variety of amps (Fender and others), and even simulate bias, power supply sag and cabinet changes.

Works very well at a bargain price, IMHO.

When you consider that an apogee A/D convertor costs $100, and an entire Mustang 1 is the same price, it's pretty compelling, if only for experimenting with these new capabilities.

Best of all, you can output directly to your computer to record your efforts.

**Jim Soloway** · 07-24-2012, 06:06 PM

I've added another clip using a new model featuring the Tweed Bassman model into the Celestion 1x12 cab. Same guitar, same basic passage.

**Kenneth** · 07-24-2012, 06:44 PM

The Tweed Bassman is lovely. I mostly use a Fender Tweed model on my Roland 40xl.

**mangotango** · 07-25-2012, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by boles

That is some excellent work, Jim. Thanks for taking the time to make that comparison and, for the record -- in a thread long, long, ago and gladly far away -- I loved your "pick sound" analysis you took the time to put together for us. You made your point precise and clear and left no doubt or argument. It was suck a perfect moment of "point proven."

I was always a Fender tube amp guy with my Strats and Teles and now that I'm a Gibson Jazz boy, I'm finding the modeling amps really interesting and effective. I'm currently using a Vox Valvetronix on the "AC30HH" setting and it provides a clean and slightly creamy Jazz tone at a really low price. I like it better than my Fender Princeton Reverb for playing Jazz! The Valvetronix will hold me until I get my Henriksen. SMILE!

Funnily enough, those amps are what I use.

With the duo work that I do (one with trumpet/flugelhorn, on with double bass) and big band stuff, I use the Henriksen JazzAmp 110. It's a sound that's true to the guitar that I'm using.

For work with the quartet, where the guitar sound is augmented by effects, and where I might want more "attack", I have started to use the Valvetronix ADVT 60 again. Mostly it's the AC30 voice, though I did use the Acoustic simulator in the studio last weekend when the nylon-string electro wouldn't behave.

Vox? Hey, as I've mentioned before on this forum, I grew up in Liverpool in the 60's - what were you expecting?

**ooglybong** · 07-25-2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

All -

I'm not a schill, but the Fender Mustang series, with the FUSE software, lets you model a vast variety of amps (Fender and others), and even simulate bias, power supply sag and cabinet changes.

Works very well at a bargain price, IMHO.

When you consider that an apogee A/D convertor costs $100, and an entire Mustang 1 is the same price, it's pretty compelling, if only for experimenting with these new capabilities.

Best of all, you can output directly to your computer to record your efforts.

+1. Love my Mustang III.

The difference between the Fender Mustang line -and- pretty much all the other companies (as far as my own experience goes, of course) is that the Boss, Line 6, etc. companies tend to offer a large selection of lotsa heavier rock tones, with somewhat less emphasis on cleaner tones—but the Fender Mustang series is based on the (natch!) Fender line, thereby offering a somewhat more promising selection of the cleaner end of the scale. (But there are still Marshall and Boogie models, to be sure.)

So, not only do you get your Twin model, but pretty much any other Fender you can think of. (OK, there's surely some missing, but you get my drift.) Even be able to adjust the virtual bias and sag on your settings—either on board the amp or via the computer—a very powerful tool to play around with in terms of control and attack on your tone.

Throw in all the computer control (I haven't even gone there myself yet, but I've heard it's amazing), inc. the computer recording interface, and, IMHO, you should definitely be checking this one out, Jim. (And if you want a "smaller footprint" though, say, a small, clean output amp, there's also a newer Mustang Floor™ unit which has all the sounds and the computer interface, plus adding an expression pedal and nine buttons for live control. Heck, I might even end up getting one of these, too, sometime.)

BTW, this observation is coming from a *long time* Boss GT-5 > GT-6 > GT-8 user. (I also own a Bass Pod, if that matters, which I definitely have also found useful in recording.) Still love my GT-8, too, but I haven't needed to touch it in over a year since I got the Mustang.

IMO, if you were to ever go for one, I'd go straight to the M *III* for the best tone and GUI for an amp that's still smallish and light to carry. Definitely loud enough to gig with, too. It's a huge improvement over the M I and M II, both of which I've used or owned. (BTW, I got mine locally for $270 new. Ha! I have some stomp boxes that I've paid more for!

)

No, I don't work for Fender, either. This is just a *seriously* useful product!

Lest I forget, Jim... great clips!

**Al_F** · 07-25-2012, 01:12 PM

I've had a Mustang II for a year and half, and agree its fantastic. I've been thinking of moving up to a III but don't want to deal with the fizz issue. When did you buy your III? I'm thinking may be they've solved this issue.

**Frank67** · 07-25-2012, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Al_F

I've had a Mustang II for a year and half, and agree its fantastic. I've been thinking of moving up to a III but don't want to deal with the fizz issue. When did you buy your III? I'm thinking may be they've solved this issue.

For small money you can get a Mustang floor and attach a speaker of your choice to it or run it into another amp (or run it into your computer, or ....). I like that solution a lot and it also has a well functioning volume/expression pedal.

I like the tones that come out of this quite a bit. I often run it into my Cube XL and like the result a lot better than the Cube sounds and is the closest to a tube sound I get without powering up a tube amp. Or I use it as a effect board together with my Henricksen (only the stomp boxes, no Amp simulation). It is really versatile and cheap, yet easy to use and good sounding.

**ooglybong** · 07-25-2012, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Al_F

I've had a Mustang II for a year and half, and agree its fantastic. I've been thinking of moving up to a III but don't want to deal with the fizz issue. When did you buy your III? I'm thinking may be they've solved this issue.

I had the Mustang II originally, but made a BIG move up to the III about 18 months ago. Sound-wise, GUI upgrade, power and speaker... NO comparison, IMO. I love the amp overall but I do tend to use it for more fusion/rock tones. I have a couple of other amps that I use specifically for a more mainstream jazz sound.

Yeah, mine seemed to develop the hiss problem eventually. I really don't think it was there originally. I also haven't bothered to update the firmware, etc. in a looong time. Maybe that would help, but in all honesty, I never notice it much when I'm playing. That said, for a really quiet solo performance, one might notice something.

In all honesty, if I were doing it all over again, that Mustang Foot™ unit put thru a clean amp, directly into the power amp in jack, might be even better, plus you could eventually go stereo if you wanted. Heck, I might end up getting one eventually.

Hey, Floor™ users: is there any reported hiss through this pedal board?

**Keira Witherkay** · 07-26-2012, 01:10 AM

my question to all, and i ask out of true "just Not knowing" is why would a jazz player , of course unless using extensive effects then i would class them more as an experimental jazz player want to bother with amp modelling ........

yes i understand it in the studio and have even heard the kemper modelling which is studio grade ......

but great clean jazz tone is available in many amps that cost the same or less than a line 6 HD then add the cost of a power amp and a speaker ........

am i missing something , for me i have a 15W tube amp which is a custom build by a renown amp builder in this part of the world which is a 65 princeton design but with a 12", it's light easy to carry and can work in my lounge and in a 100 seater club ,and pop a mic in front of it at lounge volume and it records well.... and offers amazing tone on both archtop and any solid electrics..... and it has that " real tube jazz clean tone " cos it is a "real all tube amp" ...... and stays clean up to 3/4 of volume ....amps like this even custom builds are pretty affordable and offer everything for clean guitar jazz ...

and with that tube tone available which the modelling is trying to recreate.... why not use the real thing ....?

so by not looking like too much of a dinasour(which i unashamably am) rejecting technology my main quetion is why bother with modelling ....... when the sound you trying to find is available in affordable tube amps ...... i get it if you own a studio and want access to all the amp tones out there, for all genres but a jazz guitarist kinda uses/finds one tone and sticks to it ..so why not just find that one good tube/ss amp that has 'your" tone rather than buy a modeller that does 100 amps but none 100% correct ....cos modelling technology is fabulous but still not 100% right ...YET...

but i will openly admit i may be missing the entire point here but i have to ask .

**ruger9** · 07-26-2012, 08:10 AM

IMO the coolest thing about modelers is:

1) it allows you to "audition" many different tones to see what you like

2) some modelers like the GDEC come with backing tracks (or at least the ability to play them) so you can actually practice over changes... vital for getting better at soloing. The GDEC doesn't come with any jazz backing tracks, but it'll play any .wav or mp3 track you put into it.

That being said, AFTER you no longer need backing tracks to practice to, and AFTER you have found the tone you like, there is simply nothing better than a small tube amp with one volume and one tone knob...and preferably reverb. If it's the tone you want, it's pure magic. Simply turn it on, no tweaking, and play.

**Frank67** · 07-26-2012, 08:43 AM

Keira, I hear you and I think that there are good reasons to take your point view. I guess the attraction with the modelling lies in the combination of versatility, flexibility, convenience and reliability.

For example one gets a good tone from modelling at any volume level while a tube amp typically only sounds great in a certain volume range. Then interfacing for recording is quite a bit easier than to obsess about the placement of a microphone and making sure that there are no extraneous reflections or noises etc ... You can store a number of different sounds and have them available with one foottap etc etc ...

The number of small, portable and good sounding tube amps that can keep up with a drummer is not all that overwhelming and your modified Princeton appears to be one of the not too many good alternatives. I have a similar solution with a custom made tube amp that is 10kg or less... And despite having said all those things about modelling, I agree with you - this is enough :-) yet, when I just briefly sit down to play a bit Or want to record at night or in the morning I just power up the modelling amp and it enjoy its "instant on"

And for high end I guess things like the Kemper are probably great (I haven't heard one yet but the opinion that it just sounds like the originals is pretty unanimous)

**FrankyNoTone** · 07-26-2012, 10:54 AM

It seems to be conveniently ignored that in order to get "the one" tube amp, many folks have spent a considerable amount of time, energy and money in "tweaking" them by buying, trying, customizing and selling many amps.

Also, modelers are instant on, always sounds the same, and require no maintenance while a tube amp requires several minutes to warm up, then testing to see if the tubes are worn out or have failed. If they have, then its back to the repair shop to get them replaced, and bias recalibrated. And once you get it back, your amp may not sound exactly the same since there is a wide variation in tubes.