Revisiting the power of amp modeling

[jorgemg1984]

Hmm... small, light, loud (much louder than a princeton), same sound at all volumes, no maintenance money, lots of extra eq possibilites, addition of reverb and other effects (with lots of control)... just having the same sound at all volumes and extra-eq is a big advantage to me (if it sounds close enough to real amps of course).

I think I am going a similar route that I will post when i have it ready.

[Jim Soloway]

my question to all, and i ask out of true "just Not knowing" is why would a jazz player , of course unless using extensive effects then i would class them more as an experimental jazz player want to bother with amp modelling ........

yes i understand it in the studio and have even heard the kemper modelling which is studio grade ......

but great clean jazz tone is available in many amps that cost the same or less than a line 6 HD then add the cost of a power amp and a speaker ........

am i missing something , for me i have a 15W tube amp which is a custom build by a renown amp builder in this part of the world which is a 65 princeton design but with a 12", it's light easy to carry and can work in my lounge and in a 100 seater club ,and pop a mic in front of it at lounge volume and it records well.... and offers amazing tone on both archtop and any solid electrics..... and it has that " real tube jazz clean tone " cos it is a "real all tube amp" ...... and stays clean up to 3/4 of volume ....amps like this even custom builds are pretty affordable and offer everything for clean guitar jazz ...

and with that tube tone available which the modelling is trying to recreate.... why not use the real thing ....?

so by not looking like too much of a dinasour(which i unashamably am) rejecting technology my main quetion is why bother with modelling ....... when the sound you trying to find is available in affordable tube amps ...... i get it if you own a studio and want access to all the amp tones out there, for all genres but a jazz guitarist kinda uses/finds one tone and sticks to it ..so why not just find that one good tube/ss amp that has 'your" tone rather than buy a modeller that does 100 amps but none 100% correct ....cos modelling technology is fabulous but still not 100% right ...YET...

but i will openly admit i may be missing the entire point here but i have to ask .

I would say that you're missing quite a bit.

First, the main point of my post was that with a single rig and a little effort, I was able to cover multiple styles of warm clean tone. These were all dones with a single guitar but I have three different guitars. They're not all the same and they each respond best to different amp configurations. With the modeler I am able to create separate patches with settings optimized for each of my guitars. That could even be something as simple as different tone control settings but think of how useful it would be to be able to switch guitars without having to then mess with the tone controls.

Second, I'm not looking to replicate an amp correctly. I'm looking to produce the sounds in my head correctly. That's a very different thing and I believe that with the control I have over a modeler I'm actually able to do that better than I ever could with an amp, especially with a single amp. The rig adapts to me rather than the other way around.

Third, it is in fact a very cost effective. The modeler and the powered cab I run it through sell for about $400 each. They replace my old amp, my recording pre amp/interface, my mic, my tuner, a direct box and any outboard effects that I may use while providing me with many additional effects and EQ options that I would not consider buying if they weren't part of the rig.

Forth, it produces tones that are entirely independent of volume. Every tube amp I have ever had has a minimum volume level at which its tone starts to blossom and a maximum volume level to which it is able to stay clean enough for me to use. With a modeler, I can get my desired tone at any volume level. That also means that I can use different styles of amps, many of which are just too large and too loud to be practical for me in real life. Like you, I used Princeton style amps for a long time but I also owned a Twin. It sat in my garage for two years, never getting played until I finally sold it jus to make some space.

Fifth, it is incredibly easy and efficient to record and immune to outside noise. I just run a USB cable from the modeler to the computer and it's done. No pre-amp, no mic BUT, I have my choice of 8 different "virtual mics", 6 of which are far to expensive for me to actually own in real life.

Sixth, I am able to design rigs that I could not get in real life. I am able to pair amplifiers types with unmatched speakers that give me the warmth and tonal range I want from a large scale amp but without the boominess and overwhelming low mids that come from a large scale cab. Thats why I've paired the Tweed Bassman model with a 1x12 cab.

Seventh, it allows me much more control of my effects. I like reverb and tremolo but with a Fender Blackface style amp, they tend to be either on or off and the trem especially can be overpowering. With the modeler I am able to mix the wet and dry signals giving me a much more subtle use of both the trem and verb.

Eighth, the tones produced by the modeler are entirely scalable. I can run it through a small FRFR cab for a small room, two cabs for a larger room, or direct out to a PA where necessary.

Ninth, and perhaps the most important, I have had more pure pleasure playing this rig than any amp I've ever owned. I regularly have those magical moments when I just feel like what I'm hearing is as close to perfect as I'm able to get with a guitar and an amp and isn't that the only true purpose of the gear in the first place?

I could go on for a while longer but that should give you an idea of why I've given up all of my tube amps and can't imagine ever going back.

[Frank67]

Hmm... small, light, loud (much louder than a princeton), same sound at all volumes, no maintenance money, lots of extra eq possibilites, addition of reverb and other effects (with lots of control)... just having the same sound at all volumes and extra-eq is a big advantage to me (if it sounds close enough to real amps of course).

I think I am going a similar route that I will post when i have it ready.

... you are surprising me Jorge :-) - good luck in the hunt and let us know what you home in on!

Maybe take a look at the Kemper profiling amp. It is expensive but can apparently replicate any amp tone to high perfection. In the budget realm there are of course many alternatives that at least to my not-so-refined-ear sound good to great (not the COSM though). Since you like head/cab maybe the Mustang Floor is not such a bad idea to try? (and dirt cheap)

I am subscribing to everything that Jim Soloway said in his post below.

[jorgemg1984]

Hi Frank

I am not going exactly the same route Jim did - right now I have a jazzmaster ultralight head and an henriksen head. The henriksen is flat with all the controls flat so with a light cab and a good preamp pedal it should be good at "modelling".

But as you can see I already gave up tubes. These two amps are small and very loud - with my current pedals behind them they sound excellent.. I will post when I have everything finished, I am still tweaking some ideas of the preamp that will replace my current eq pedal... It will have some things my current eq has plus preamp recreations of one or two other amps. So my idea is simpler than Jim's in a way: analog preamp pedal into flat amp into guitar speaker. Not far from Jack Suzcer's Barb EQ into henriksen idea... if it doesn't work it's alright, I am already very happy with my sound.

Now back to the OP, I am curious to see Jim's reply to Keira - specially because he had so many (good) tube amps in the past.

[Klatu]

Jim,

What power amp and speaker cabinet are you using when playing out?

The sounds are great. They definitely make we consider ditching my heavy unreliable tube amps.

[fep]

I would say that you're missing quite a bit.

First, the main point of my post was that with a single rig and a little effort, I was able to cover multiple styles of warm clean tone. These were all dones with a single guitar but I have three different guitars. They're not all the same and they each respond best to different amp configurations. With the modeler I am able to create separate patches with settings optimized for each of my guitars. That could even be something as simple as different tone control settings but think of how useful it would be to be able to switch guitars without having to then mess with the tone controls.

Second, I'm not looking to replicate an amp correctly. I'm looking to produce the sounds in my head correctly. That's a very different thing and I believe that with the control I have over a modeler I'm actually able to do that better than I ever could with an amp, especially with a single amp. The rig adapts to me rather than the other way around.

Third, it is in fact a very cost effective. The modeler and the powered cab I run it through sell for about $400 each. They replace my old amp, my recording pre amp/interface, my mic, my tuner, a direct box and any outboard effects that I may use while providing me with many additional effects and EQ options that I would not consider buying if they weren't part of the rig.

Forth, it produces tones that are entirely independent of volume. Every tube amp I have ever had has a minimum volume level at which its tone starts to blossom and a maximum volume level to which it is able to stay clean enough for me to use. With a modeler, I can get my desired tone at any volume level. That also means that I can use different styles of amps, many of which are just too large and too loud to be practical for me in real life. Like you, I used Princeton style amps for a long time but I also owned a Twin. It sat in my garage for two years, never getting played until I finally sold it jus to make some space.

Fifth, it is incredibly easy and efficient to record and immune to outside noise. I just run a USB cable from the modeler to the computer and it's done. No pre-amp, no mic BUT, I have my choice of 8 different "virtual mics", 6 of which are far to expensive for me to actually own in real life.

Sixth, I am able to design rigs that I could not get in real life. I am able to pair amplifiers types with unmatched speakers that give me the warmth and tonal range I want from a large scale amp but without the boominess and overwhelming low mids that come from a large scale cab. Thats why I've paired the Tweed Bassman model with a 1x12 cab.

Seventh, it allows me much more control of my effects. I like reverb and tremolo but with a Fender Blackface style amp, they tend to be either on or off and the trem especially can be overpowering. With the modeler I am able to mix the wet and dry signals giving me a much more subtle use of both the trem and verb.

Eighth, the tones produced by the modeler are entirely scalable. I can run it through a small FRFR cab for a small room, two cabs for a larger room, or direct out to a PA where necessary.

Ninth, and perhaps the most important, I have had more pure pleasure playing this rig than any amp I've ever owned. I regularly have those magical moments when I just feel like what I'm hearing is as close to perfect as I'm able to get with a guitar and an amp and isn't that the only true purpose of the gear in the first place?

I could go on for a while longer but that should give you an idea of why I've given up all of my tube amps and can't imagine ever going back.

10th, you can set down your electric, plug in an acoustic steel string or acoustic nylon string, or a guitar synth, set the modeler to 'direct', and you'll get a great sound through the same rig that you were using as your electric guitar amp. (That's the main reason I use one)

11 - Use two small Full Range Flat Response (FRFR) speakers and you'll have a big stereo sound.

[Al_F]

I had the Mustang II originally, but made a BIG move up to the III about 18 months ago. Sound-wise, GUI upgrade, power and speaker... NO comparison, IMO. I love the amp overall but I do tend to use it for more fusion/rock tones. I have a couple of other amps that I use specifically for a more mainstream jazz sound.

Yeah, mine seemed to develop the hiss problem eventually. I really don't think it was there originally. I also haven't bothered to update the firmware, etc. in a looong time. Maybe that would help, but in all honesty, I never notice it much when I'm playing. That said, for a really quiet solo performance, one might notice something.

In all honesty, if I were doing it all over again, that Mustang Foot™ unit put thru a clean amp, directly into the power amp in jack, might be even better, plus you could eventually go stereo if you wanted. Heck, I might end up getting one eventually.

Hey, Floor™ users: is there any reported hiss through this pedal board?

Ok, I'm thinking harder about this. I need a little more power. the GUI interface would be nice too.

[ooglybong]

Ok, I'm thinking harder about this. I need a little more power. the GUI interface would be nice too.

Eh, what's to think about? Going from 40 to 100 watts with more headroom on tap if nothing else? Getting an actual Celestion speaker? The open-back cab sounds a lot better, too, IMO. Man, just having that nice GUI screen advantage is a HUGE improvement.

BTW, I noticed the other day that Sweetwater (at least) has a price drop on the Mustang series of stuff; the M III is now going for about $275, IIRC.

I gave my son the M II I used to own when I upgraded (that was a great excuse! ), and now I find the simpler lights-and-memory approach that the M I and II require to be rather annoying—not to mention, at least to me, missing out on exploring the deeper editing capabilities right there directly on the M III amp itself. (Of course, if you're going direct thru your computer, then that's a more level experience between the various models. So far, I rarely have bothered.)

[Al_F]

ha,ha I hear you, man! I've been watching the price as well, for $275 it a steal.

[Jim Soloway]

Jim,

What power amp and speaker cabinet are you using when playing out?

The sounds are great. They definitely make we consider ditching my heavy unreliable tube amps.

I run mine through an RCF 310A powered cab. It's a small active PA cab with a very flat, neutral response.

[feet]

partially due to your inspirational posts and clips, i've decided to track down a roland vstudio 100. i looked long and hard at the bean, but this does a little more of what i need, and comes with guitar rig, just in case. i still get to play with mics and pretend i'm keeping an art alive.

i'd be more willing to walk away from amps if i didn't have so much invested in them (and mics, and preamps and software, etc) and they didn't sound so damn good. then again, one is facing some repairs, so maybe i will pick up a pod somewhere down the line. a bean into my old jc77 should be quite the travel rig.

how's the durability on the thing? i had a first generation bean many moons ago and the input jack was fussy. also didn't sound so great but that was a long time ago. and have you ever tried your pod in a mix with other instruments/vocals before? curious to see how the tracks play with other sources and sit in a mix. they stuck out really badly in the past.

[Klatu]

I run mine through an RCF 310A powered cab. It's a small active PA cab with a very flat, neutral response.

Thanks.

As for the POD, do you have the floor unit or the one that looks like a kidney bean?

[Jim Soloway]

Thanks.

As for the POD, do you have the floor unit or the one that looks like a kidney bean?

i have the bean. I started with the HD500, the largest floor unit and it was too large for travel. I then went to the HD300 to get the size down but I switched to the bean as soon as they brought it out. I don;t do enough switching for the floor models to really offer me enough benefit to put up with the added size.

And feet, the unit was been problem free for over a year using it every day. I can't really comment on how it would sit in a mix. I've been playing strictly solo for many years.

[jorgemg1984]

You can see the bean on Jim's videos

Edit: Sorry, Jim replied meanwhile.

[Keira Witherkay]

thanks for the replies re the motivation behind going the modelling route
always keen to hear how others approach things,
peace K

[Chimera1to1]

Hi Jim,

I've got a POD HD and originally was quite taken with it for jazz sounds. To be honest though I am happier with the tone from my JazzKing.

Have you posted your amps to the Line 6 website? If so could you post a link....there's a lot of rubbish to wade through on there

Peter

[Jim Soloway]

Hi Jim,

I've got a POD HD and originally was quite taken with it for jazz sounds. To be honest though I am happier with the tone from my JazzKing.

Have you posted your amps to the Line 6 website? If so could you post a link....there's a lot of rubbish to wade through on there

Peter

Hi Peter

I have posted several of my patches to the Line 6 site, but they've all evolved a bit since then. If you send me an e-mail address I'd be happy to just e-mail you the patch files.

[Chimera1to1]

Thanks Jim, I'll pm you

Peter