Floating Pickups

**musicafterhours** · 10-24-2013, 03:39 AM

I guess another possibility is to get a kingpin and find a direct replacement hb for the p90.
Id be 100 more into the guitar.
Would I find a direct reace making the install alot cheaper? Hopefully an armstrong?
Could I use all the stock electronics downstream of the pickup.

In other words would this be more cost effective?
Thx
Dave

**kris** · 10-24-2013, 04:44 AM

I have instaled Kent Armstrong floating hand made PAF in my jazz box/to the fingerrest/.
250k pots/volume and tone/.
The sound is really nice.This guitar sound exelent with tube amp.

Attachment 9194

Attachment 9195

**jorgemg1984** · 10-24-2013, 05:30 AM

I have a Kingpin with a P90. I don't think you can get a Wes sound from it... even with a PAF.

**Woody Sound** · 10-24-2013, 09:14 AM

I have KA's hand made floating PAF on my D'Aquisto and it sounds PLENTY smooth and mellow.

**jorgemg1984** · 10-24-2013, 11:50 AM

The guitar does not have that Wes sound.. it's brighter. With my X-500 I can get much closer to that sound - if I want, which I don't

**mr. beaumont** · 10-24-2013, 11:55 AM

If you can't get a dark, classic jazz tone out of a P90, the problem isn't the pickup.

**jorgemg1984** · 10-24-2013, 12:06 PM

Jeff I think you can dial the extra treble with the tone knob or the amp's eq - but it's still a more open, acoustic sound than a PAF...

**2bornot2bop** · 10-24-2013, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Woody Sound

I have KA's hand made floating PAF on my D'Aquisto and it sounds PLENTY smooth and mellow.

I don't know the Kingpin guitars, but I do know, from personal experience, that all floating pickups are NOT created equal.

The KA hand made (read non asian models) floating pups are the real deal, and equally as expressive as any humbucker. The Bartolini 5J floater is no slouch as well.

If the Kingpin is your price range perhaps you might want to consider the Ibanez models with a single set humbucker. Jim Soloway recently did a review on one such very affordable archtop and spoke very highly of it.

If the OP had heard the Loar 650 with a Bartolini 5J you'd have been all over that setup. As good as I've heard. Warm, warm, warm, and the equal of any humbucker. See the review via the search box.

**Chazmo** · 10-24-2013, 12:26 PM

I have a 5th Avenue with a Bartolini 5J Johnny Smith-style pickup attached to the neck and wired directly to a jack with no tone or volume controls. I had a Kingpin before that with the P90, but sold it becasue I was looking for a more acoustic tone. The Bartolini is a hell of a pickup, especially for the price.

To me, the Wes and Joe sounds are quite different. I could get a Joe Pass/ES-175 vibe from the Kingpin, but for the Wes sound, I use my Epiphone Elitist Broadway because it is more like an L-5. My current 5th Avenue/Bartolini has a great thing of its own going on and I still get a warm tone from the Bartolini. More and more, the 5th Avenue is becoming my go-to axe because it is so light and comfortable, and it gets a great sound.

**Chazmo** · 10-24-2013, 12:32 PM

As far as parts, there are choices, but a good start would be to check out the turnkey kits at Archtop.com. They are a little pricier than buying seperate components, but you pay for the convenience of getting the right parts, all in one bag.

**Marty Grass** · 10-24-2013, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

If you can't get a dark, classic jazz tone out of a P90, the problem isn't the pickup.

I have to agree. I have recordings of Wes with a P90 and with a humbucker. They sound remarkably similar.

**kris** · 10-24-2013, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

I have to agree. I have recordings of Wes with a P90 and with a humbucker. They sound remarkably similar.

I have to agree too.
Wes sound was mostly from his fingers.
He did not use pick...just thumb.
Warm,dark sound...:-)

**fritz jones** · 10-25-2013, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by kris

I have instaled Kent Armstrong floating hand made PAF in my jazz box/to the fingerrest/.
250k pots/volume and tone/.
The sound is really nice.This guitar sound exelent with tube amp .

do you like 250k pots more than 500k for humbuckers?

**kris** · 10-25-2013, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by fritz jones

do you like 250k pots more than 500k for humbuckers?

Yes...it's make my guitar warmer and a little darker.
Best
Kris

**RClegg** · 09-13-2014, 07:52 PM

I recently played an Ibanez AF 151 with a floating pickup, and was surprised by how good it sounded in the way that guitars with floating pickups are supposed to sound. Not to over-examine a good thing, but I was surprised that a guitar with a floating pickup and a laminate top sounded that nice. Anyone else have positive experiences playing laminate guitars with floating pickups?

As I understand it, floating pickups allow the top of the guitar to resonate more, and thereby produce a different perhaps "woodier" sound. The Ibanez sounded okay acoustically, but not great, but plugged
in still sounded like I would expect a guitar with a floating pickup to sound. My other limited experience playing laminate top guitars with floating pickups was that they didn't sound so great and didn't have they distinctive sound you get from better guitars with carved tops.

I have to admit that given that pickups get their sound from the vibrations of the strings through a magnetic field, and not from the body, I don't really understand why it matters if is floating or not, so my understanding of the physics is not completely up to speed.

**3625** · 09-13-2014, 08:21 PM

I used to play a gibson Howard Roberts (oval hole, not the fusion model) that was a laminate with a floating paf. Yeah, it works well. I think floaters brighten the amplified tone - this particular guitar was very bright. If you can tame the brightness so it's not harsh or brittle sounding, you usually end up with an interesting and complex sound.

The Ibanez GB10's are laminates with floaters too.

However, I'm a big believer in the whole guitar (inc. body) effecting the overall sound, not just the pickup and strings.

**edh** · 09-13-2014, 08:57 PM

@RClegg,

"I have to admit that given that pickups get their sound from the vibrations of the strings through a magnetic field, and not from the body, I don't really understand why it matters if is floating or not, so my understanding of the physics is not completely up to speed. "

Here is my not so expert opinion as to the above statement. I would think that using a floater allows both the electronic sound and the acoustic sound to both project through the instrument. IMNSEO.

**floatingpickup** · 09-13-2014, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by RClegg

I recently played an Ibanez AF 151 with a floating pickup, and was surprised by how good it sounded in the way that guitars with floating pickups are supposed to sound. Not to over-examine a good thing, but I was surprised that a guitar with a floating pickup and a laminate top sounded that nice. Anyone else have positive experiences playing laminate guitars with floating pickups?

As I understand it, floating pickups allow the top of the guitar to resonate more, and thereby produce a different perhaps "woodier" sound. The Ibanez sounded okay acoustically, but not great, but plugged
in still sounded like I would expect a guitar with a floating pickup to sound. My other limited experience playing laminate top guitars with floating pickups was that they didn't sound so great and didn't have they distinctive sound you get from better guitars with carved tops.

I have to admit that given that pickups get their sound from the vibrations of the strings through a magnetic field, and not from the body, I don't really understand why it matters if is floating or not, so my understanding of the physics is not completely up to speed.

I don't really think a floating pickup is about a particular type of electric tone. I think it is more about having a purely acoustic guitar that can also be amplified when required. It isn't actually most "efficient" electric guitar design, but it does pretty well when amplified. Acoustically, however, it's as if there's no hardware added at all. The best of both worlds.
Keith

**3625** · 09-13-2014, 09:44 PM

Keith, I think floaters have a particular quality of their own in terms of amplified sound. What makes me think this is my experience with the Howard Roberts. The body is exactly the same as a 175 (apart from the soundholes) - same dimensions and materials - but the response through the amp was noticeably different.

**floatingpickup** · 09-13-2014, 10:08 PM

3625: I agree that they sound different than guitars with built-in pickups. I just meant that the original intent of the floating pickup was likely to allow a player to amplify a guitar without losing any of the acoustic qualities of the instrument. The result, however, ended up being a unique sound that was not exactly like an electric or an acoustic. I have guitars with floating pickups and guitars with built-in pickups. I go back and forth between them and I like both sounds. They aren't exactly the same though.
Keith

**Hammertone** · 09-14-2014, 12:59 AM

It's all about interactions.

With floating pickups, the top vibrates independently of the the pickup - all the pickup does is read magnetic signals from the vibrating strings (which are affected by interactions with the guitar body). Physical interactions with the vibrating instrument are limited by how the pickup is attached to the instrument - screwed to the end of the neck, screwed to a pickguard which is itself screwed to the neck and/or rims and/or bridge and/or top plate, and more.

With set-in pickups, the top vibrates and the pickup vibrates with the top, into or onto which it is attached. Simultaneously, the pickup reads magnetic signals from the vibrating strings (which are affected by interactions with the guitar body).

So even with identical pickups positioned in the same spot under the strings, identical (or very similar) guitars will sound different from eadh other depending on which pickup mounting system is being used.

I, too, like both sounds. I have a guitar coming in on which I may experiment with a Guild George Barnes style pickup mount, since it already has a hole cut for a full-sized neck humbucker. Should be fun.

**Ghostlady** · 09-14-2014, 02:53 AM

It should be noted, some of this depends on how thick the laminate is as well. For example it was noted how loud Guild laminates can be without the pickup (whether it is the USA made, or recent Korean made), but this is largely because they are three ply, as supposed to 5, as such they tend to resonate more. Not every laminate is the same. The laminate technique and body construction plays into how a laminate sounds quite a bit.

**Greentone** · 09-14-2014, 09:08 AM

It should be the case that the strings behave differently too. They vibrate longer on a Les Paul than on an archtop, for example.

The sound of a DeArmond floater is quite different from a set in HB. If someone put a Rhythm Chief on a laminate guitar, I would expect it to sound quite different than the sound of a set in PAF in that guitar. (Expensive experiment)

**vinlander** · 09-14-2014, 10:06 AM

In my case the floater (stock, Korean Kent Armstrong and even a Barto 5J) were never delivering the tone I was after on my Regent. It was overall bright and boomy on the bass strings; never as thick as I wished.
Acoustically it sounds quite nice to my ears but plugged in nope...
The Epi Regent top is somehow thick also don't know if it was a reason, maybe my experience is not reflecting what others had with laminated and a floater.
Now with a set in VV HCC I have the impression the acoustic property is even more represented even if it goes against what should be. In any case now the thick thunk I get acoustically is also delivered through the pickup and it sounds great!

**GoergeBenson** · 09-15-2014, 06:52 AM

In regards to the HR, isn't that a floating humbucker?

I do not like single floating pickups, never have. They don't seem to have the depth and richness of a Humbucker to me.
I stopped using them some years ago, although a DR 1000 is a great single pup.

In regards to laminates with floaters, yes it is a little contradictory. If anything I would use a floater on a lam, to brighten the tone up a bit if the guitar was too dark.

I would suggest that if you had tried a single mounted pickup in the Ibanez you mention, it could have sounded even better. You just don't know because that option wasn't available.

My point is, you don't know if the single coil is making the nice tone or the guitar. Its probably there more for marketing purposes. Unless they have done it to free up the bracing of the top. This would make the top lighter and more resonant, so in this case, it would not only be the floater that makes a difference but the bracing or lack of for it.

Of course if they have just braced it the same as a twin hum bucker version then there is no point in the floater and its there just for Marketing reasons.