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Just wondering if anyone's experienced getting a better tone using LIGHTER strings. I have a laminate top guitar (Epi Joe Pass), and have been using rather heavy TI GB114s. But now I'm considering going down, to maybe 12's. I've always preferred heavier stings (strong fingers I guess), and went by the rule to use the heaviest I can stand for the best tone. This rule definitely served me well on solid body electrics and flat top acoustics, and to some extent nylons. Also, I read about the old masters using 14, 15 and they sound great... but then again they were probably using more resonant guitars.
On my guitar, I'm starting to really hear the percussive pop and plunk when I play and I'm not liking it. I'm wondering if these strings are just too heavy and choking the guitar. (Is that even possible?) The unwound trebles, especially, are giving me hardly any pleasant twang but instead sound like a piano wire being plucked with a piece of plastic. Seems like all I hear is the pick or nail and no string! I'm thinking the zing I'm after is either only possible on a solid top guitar, or I'm using the wrong string.
I know, this is really going to require me to just change the strings and see for myself. Figured I see what you guys had to say on the subject before blowing $20 only to find the sound worse. Are 12's going to be too tinny? (That was my experience on flat tops).
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07-19-2012 06:43 PM
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I think every guitar has a string gauge that suits it best.
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I think every player has a tension level that suites them best. The string gauge should be selected to accomplish that tension level given the design of the guitar.
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There was a time when I put 14s on my old Epiphone Howard Roberts and swapped the two top strings, ending up with a 16 for an E.
The sound was fabulous and I liked them on that guitar.
Now move ahead some 35 years and my fingers don't like heavy string at all. My right hand picking has gotten very light, I have an arch top with 11s on it that I haven't played for any significant time for a year. Instead I use a semi hollow thin body with 10s on it for everything I play.
I like the sound a lot, I get no ping from picking because I don't pick hard...never particularly cared for the muffled "jazz" tone anyway, so once again, it's all individual taste, since we can't define "better" tone.
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Indeed. So of course, the answer to your question is simply: "No." There is nothing better or magical about heavy strings. It's just one of the variables in the equation.
Originally Posted by Hoji
There are a great many quantifiable and not-so-quantifiable elements to guitar tone. But a very big part of it is the interface between fingers and strings. Notice I said fingers, because they either use a plectrum of some kind or they do the plucking themselves. But let's stick to picks for the moment. Here are the basic variables in the interface:
Strings: Gauge, material
Plectrum: Thickness, material, shape
Attack: Strength, angle
If you use a heavy string, you give the other side of the interface a harder, less flexible thing to hit. In order to get it to make sound, you must either use a correspondingly heavy pick OR a stronger attack. Otherwise, you will get more pick attack in your tone as the pick strikes the string. That's the "plink" you refer to.
You can use a thinner pick, but in order to preserve tone and reduce the pick sound, you must lessen your attack strength, or in some cases vary your picking angle to reduce the deflection element.
Note that all of these combinations are "good" in the right hands.
If you use lighter strings, you can still use a heavy pick, but you must strike the strings more gently or it gets sloppy and loses dynamic range. If you use a lighter pick with lighter strings, you gain dynamics because you can have a wider range of attack and still get tone from the strings.
The point I'm trying to make is that the elements of tone are interactive, and strings are only one of the parts. Therefore, "heavier strings are not always better tone." I would never even have asked that question.
For the record, I use 12-53 roundwound strings on all of my archtops (some bronze, some nickel), and a Dunlop Tortex pick in either .73 or .88mm thickness (quite thin by jazz standards).
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Some of it is the player and what they are used to playing. I know when I'm playing a lot daily I move to heavier strings I like the sound of them. Also its what the guitar itself responds to. I recently moved to 13's on my archtop and felt good, but sound just wasn't quite the same. After a few months I changed back down to 12's and the guitar just woke up sound wise.
Like everything there is no absolute answer there are lots variable in the equation and you have to experiment.
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Yeah it does depend quite a lot on how hard you hit/pluck the strings
I hit hard , and my right hand is clumsey , so I do the faster stuff with
Left hand legato techniques to compensate, I can't alternate pick for sh1t ..
Ed Bickert seems to pick really lightly with light strings and has
superb control over his chord balance and lines etc
You got to experiment a bit to find a working solution for you
when I found big flat wound stings it was a revelation for me
and everything just fell into place so much better
but that was just me
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I replaced the top two strings (14 and 18) with a 12 and a 16. The guitar is a lot livlier, and definitely easier to play. My playing is actually better now - faster, smoother. Almost too twangy, though. I miss the depth. Will try 13/17 next....
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You can hear the difference that string gauges make when you listen to the extremes. For the extreme example of thin string gauge, listen to John Mclaughlin's early work on Extrapolation. Here you'll notice that the tone is a bit thinner IMO and the intonation is further off than traditional players using more traditional gauges.
On the other extreme, take a listen to Pat Martino, who is noted for using piano wire on his guitar. IMO his tone is thick, but slightly dead.
Also keep in mind that a long scale guitar (25.5) will require lighter strings than a short scale guitar (24.75) to achieve the same tension. As a result, you'll typically find heavier strings short scale guitars.
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What are you calling "better tone"? Billy Gibbons uses 7's. A good carved Archtop needs enough pressure on the top to transmit tone, 12's are generally thought to be a good starting point. Laminate top? Depends on how thick the top & how the bracing was constructed. Guidelines are guidlines. Experiment til you get your sound.
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I use 11s or 12s on both my Guild and my Ibanez and I like flatwounds. I use a lot of barre or semi-barre chords, no capos, move around the fretboard a bit, and I just need a light action and I like it set low. I use both medium or heavy picks and there is a difference in sound with the picks. I think a heavy pick produces a fatter, thicker sound, but I'm not used to the feel of the heavy pick entirely. If I don't grip it too tight, it seems to work better for me.
Anyway, the lighter gauges sound fine on these two guitars, which I virtually always play through an amp.
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Not necessarily. I use 11s on all my electric guitars and 13s on my acoustic. I wouldn't use anything 10 or below - too thin for me. However: 11s are still thinner than 12s and 13s and they still sound great.
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I forgot to add: you might want to adjust the height of your pickups when you go to a lighter gauge esp. on the top two or three strings. It'll depend on the guitar, amp, your ears, etc......goes without saying!
I hope you find what you like.
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Many factors, but one is the thickness of your guitar body and how hard you play. You want to get the top of an acoustic guitar vibrating and the strings do that. So the heavier the guitar construction the bigger the string gauge all things being equal. A big part of it for me is feel and how much tension I want on my strings. That is a function of the string angle at the nut and bridge on your guitar. So I tend to have different string gauges on different guitars, that feel and sound good to me. Experiment until you find what you like.
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An ideal string would be heavy in the low register and thin in the high register. Pat Martino plays a lot in the low register, so he sounds good with heavy strings - so did SRV. If you listen to what the strings sound like on the very top fret, thinner is always better - 08s sound great up there, while fat strings have no sustain and the overtones are way out of tune. There is an "ideal" length/thickness ratio and it changes with the position on the fretboard.
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I am getting very satisfying results from GB 12 strings.
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This scale length - learning experience for me - came up at my last time string change - setup. My luthier also pointed this out to me. Originally Posted by Klatu
So - here's where I am now. I have this long-scale L-7 parallel braced acoustic only archtop. I started with Chromes 12's ( 'lifeless ' ) and went to 1/2 rounds -- also 12/52's and they're a lot better.
So would going up to a heavier gauge w/ lesser tension ( TI's) help / change the sound any, and if so how ?
Thanks !
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05-12-2016, 09:35 AM #19destinytot GuestI've got GB 14s on my big archtop, but I think GB 12s may be better for my little Ibanez. Originally Posted by Greentone
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Heavier is not always better, my Tal lost a bit of its thunk with JS113, went back to JS112 an never looked back
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> An ideal string would be heavy in the low register and thin in the high register.
Conventional wisdom, but I don't buy it. Ideally, I think, every string should be as similar as possible in terms of tone and feel. The strings get thicker as required by physics, you make the string thicker so that it can play its appropriate range of notes with a tension level similar to its neighbor. You never hear of piano players, for example, putting heavy gauge strings from another set on their pianos for "tone."
I think that you first decide flats vs. wound, plain G vs. wound G, and then pick a string and gauge that is low tension without being uncomfortably floppy. I wouldn't play light gauge labella tapes on a bydland, or heavy chromes on a long scale guitar. I definitely would not pick a brand or gauge of string that was uncomfortable to play in order to get a particular "tone."
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In a word, "no." When I switched recently from TI JS113 to TI GB112 I believe I got slightly better tone from my carved body archtops. (Full disclosure: one of them already had GB112 strings on it.) I had been using JS113 strings on the other, and really loved the results. The only difference between the two sets is that the three treble-side strings in the Jazz Swing set are gauged .13 .17 .21W, while those in the Benson set are .12 .16 .20W. The two plain strings are steel while the wrapped strings are nickel.
On my guitars, at least, things seemed livelier, zingier, and presented leading tones with a purer alto/tenor voice than with the slightly heavier set. Too bad. The GB set is about $10 more expensive per set.
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Ok, so now I am more confused than I thought I was.....
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It is a myth that Pat Martino uses heavy gauge strings. His lower four wound strings are those from a 12-52 set. Pat Martino uses heavy gauge plain steel strings. Originally Posted by Staffan William-Olsson
Pat Martino’s personal string preference: Flat wound .016, .018, .026, .032, .042, .052 or .015, .017, .024, .032, .042, .052Last edited by Jabberwocky; 05-12-2016 at 02:59 PM.
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Don't be. 12-52 works for almost everybody and every jazzbox. Originally Posted by Headshot
Ok, so now I am more confused than I thought I was......
The T-I Jazz Swing JS113 have essentially the lower four strings of a D'Addario 12-52 set. Most guitar manufacturers ship their guitars with D'Addarios so it some sort of standard string brand.
Plain steel strings are cheap and few will argue that they are different, from brand to brand. Buy generics in bulk from Just Strings, $2.90 a dozen.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 05-12-2016 at 03:11 PM.
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