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All other things being equal, would you hear much, or any, difference in a large-bodied archtops (2-pickup style: Epi Broadway and others) that have spruce and maple tops? I know acoustically the difference can be quite large, especially in a acoustic archtop (or one with a floating pickup)... but in a 2-pickuo mounted top? If the electric tone is all you care about, does the top wood matter?
Also, does solid or laminate matter?
So far, my experience with acoustic & electric guitars have me guessing:
(for plugged-in tone):
-the pickups matter the most
-the top wood species matters, but not much
-solid vs ply matters not at all
I'm going to be picking up another archtop (-2 pickup)...I currently have a Gretsch w/Filtertrons, roundwound strings, more of a rockabilly thing... to set-up for more of a jazz/swing thing: mellower tone, humbuckers or mini-hums, flatwound (& heavier gauge) strings. Not looking to spend a ton of money, $1000 tops, so I've been looking at the Epi Broadway, ES-175, even the new Xaviere archtops (maple). Will be buying "site unplayed" because no shops around here have any of these guitars.
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05-21-2012 06:07 AM
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It does make a difference, but with built in PUs, the difference is small and can easily be adjusted away on the amps tone controls. If anything, the plywood guitars can have a slightly more boxy sound - which many finds desirable for fast single string playing.
Other factors mean a lot more to the tone: The strings, the pick, the picking position, the PU (less than what many think), the position of the PU, wood/metal bridge etc.
BTW, even a carved spruce top archtop isn't too much of an acoustic guitar with two built in PUs and their harness. And often carved top archtops with built in PUs have thicker tops and/or are braced heavier than a purely acoustic archtop, which also dampens the acoustic response. That goes for the CES versions of both the L5 and the Super 400.
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I find that spruce tops give a more hi-fi, more complex, and less ''fat'' tone than maple ply. Solid vs Ply is also an audible difference. Whether that is good or bad depends on what you are looking for.
Perhaps the comparison is most marked between the Gibson ES175 and L4CES, which are the same guitar, apart from the top.They sound quite different ( and many prefer the 175 electric sound, though not me)
As Oldane says, other things make more difference: strings, metal or wooden bridge, pickup placement, pick thickness. I don't agree, though, that ''top wood differences'' can be adjusted away with the tone control - the sound remans different. As one who's experimented with pickups a lot, I have found that pickups make very little difference, though I have tried to kid myself otherwise at the time of changing them..
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The neck pickup of the L-4CES is situated at the end of the fretboard whereas the one in the ES-175 is at the imaginary 24th fret. Between 1991 and 1992, Gibson made a Joe Pass Custom ES-175 which is shallower in rim depth and with a solitary neck pickup placed right at the end of the fretboard a la L-4CES. That made the Joe Pass Custom ES-175 a lot warmer sounding, a lot like the L-4CES and the ES-775. So, I would say that the position of the neck pickup plays a big part in it.
Originally Posted by Franz 1997
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Actually, the neck PU on the 175 is closer to the bridge than that - closer to the bridge than the mid point between the bridge and the 12th fret (the "24th fret"). The PU on Joe Pass' custom 175 (the one he had late in life, not the first one which was a stock ES175D from 1961) and on the L5 and L4 is placed pretty close to the "24th fret". Apart from that, your observation is mine too. The closer to the bridge, the more compact and midrangy the sound. The closer to the neck, the more mellow and spread the tone. The PU placement on the 175 is part of the reason for its somewhat boxy tone (not the only reason), which can be effective for single string playing. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
When I had Tom Painter make me a guitar, I specified the PU pole blade to be placed right under the "24th fret" instead of about ½" closer to the bridge as is standard on Toms guitars. I told him to sacrifice the last fret to make room for it if necessary (which it wasn't). I like that PU placement a lot and like the sweet sound of that guitar more than the sound of my old vintage 175.
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I stand corrected, oldane. I never could count how thumbs I have because where it comes to the guitar, I am all thumbs. I could never count but you're right.
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Apples to apples a spruce top will be more mellow than a maple top, even with pickups. Maple is much heavier & more dense. A carved maple top vs a laminated maple top(same goes for spruce)...Carved has a more rich a voice, if it's done right. Glue, however thin it may be, is a hard material & bonds non-matching grain lines which makes for a stiffer top with dense layers. ES-175 is a beautiful guitar & a great sounding instrument, but much different than an archtop with carved plates, no matter how you place the pickups.
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Based on the experience I've had both with the guitars we've built and the many guitars I've owned, I think the difference is profound. Spruce has a much more complex high end. Maple is much more direct with less tonal complexity. Laminates vibrate much less than solid woods, so you hear much more of the pickup and less of the guitar than you do with solids.
And a question for the OP, if you really think the construction of the body matters so little, why would you bother with an archtop? A solid body or a semi-hollow are much more convenient, so if there's no obvious tonal payoff from the archtop, why go that way?Last edited by Jim Soloway; 05-21-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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That's why I came here to ask players more experienced with this style of guitar... I said my GUESS only comes from limited ownership of hollowbodies (2), moderate ownership of acoustics (6), and extensive ownership of solidbodies (many). Not having an extensive ownership/experience with the electric archtops, I came here to see what the scuttlebutt was regarding top woods when electrified. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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That's true - provided everything is equal. But the thing is, everything isn't equal. I haven't tried that many newer L5CES guitars, but those I have tried are were definately rather dead acoustically, and that was reflected in the amplified tone which was also rather "electric" (albeit beautiful). The Painter laminate I have is actually more "live" that a recent L5CES. That is hardly surpricing since the newer L5CES have tops which are carved thickly in the middle and has heavier bracing than just parallel braces (transverse braces too) while the Paiter is built of thin laminates. That's not to say that the Painter sounds like a carved top - it doesn't, lamintes do sound different - but I hear more of the box thean I do with an L5CES. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
Well, there's a lot of tradition in it. And the archtop is part of the jazz tradition, just like shiny golden saxes and white tuxedos. A beautiful archtop looks so much more cool than a plain Tele. For what it's worth - or not worth - there has been more than one blindfold test on this forum where people has put up for comparison sound clips of solid bodies, semisolids and carved archtops. Few have been able to tell which guitar was the archtop. More than once it was a Strat which fooled people into believing it was an archtop. Personally I believe that it's the positioning of the neck Strat PU (under he "24th fret") which provides that mellow sound reminiscent of an archtop. I also believe that it's the difference in the placement of the neck PU which means at least part of the difference in sound between an L5 and a 175. But OK, I admit that this PU positioning is a pet subject of mine.....if you really think the construction of the body matters so little, why would you bother with an archtop? A solid body or a semi-hollow are much more convenient, so if there's no obvious tonal payoff from the archtop, why go that way?
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Disregarding practical considerations - feedback, durability, etc - to my mind the fretboard and also the strings vs the right hand are too close on anything less than a hollow body. I also love the physical feedback of the instrument vibrating with a hollow body. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
laminate vs carved - very different quality to the amplified sound imo
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Thanks for the detailed post! I have experience with an Epi Broadway (years ago, I'd be going from memory, but I'd have to say it definitely sounded more mellow than my current arch, as well as had a better acoustic tone (but acoustic tone is secondary to me)... my current arch is: Originally Posted by Hexatonics
Gretsch Brian Setzer Hot Rod with TV jones filtertrons... NOT very mellow or jazzy pickups. Weak/clear, yes... mellow- NO. Very bright, clear, articulate, when pared with a 500K vol pot and a maple top (3-ply lam) it's quite bright (I actually replaced the 500K with a 250K to tame the trebles a bit, since the TVJs are actually weaker than my tele pickups, and they use a 250K.
My whole thing with spruce vs maple is two-fold:
1) I have a maple archtop, no tone post, just trestle braces. I could probably drop some darker TVJs right in there and be in business. Especially with flatwounds. But this is my rockabilly guitar, more edge... I'd like to add a guitar to the stable rather than change the Gretsch to another use.
2) if I go with spruce, the Epi Broadway is really the only thing in my price range. If I go with maple, there are many more choices, even the Xaviere archtops get decent reviews (if you get a good one... at that price, it might just be worth a try).
Oh- and I'd definitely want two pickups, just for the versatility. For what I'm after, I'd definitely use the bridge pickup enough to justify it.
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Yeeooww. Probing the eternal verities here it seems.
[Oldane]>>> But the thing is, everything isn't equal.
That describes pretty much 100% of guitar A vs. B opinions. (And self-described "actually helpful" views on wood)
It is almost impossible to isolate the variables in such discussions. So yeah, the bell curve of opinion can often have an almost invisible peak.
I do find carved spruce more complex than laminated maple, but beyond that very broad distinction, differences are lost in the other variables.
[Franz] >>> I have found that pickups make very little difference
Amen to that. Yes they make a difference, but the sort of difference that is often equal to whether or not the player is wearing a sweater, or whether or not the drapes are open in the room.
Also, many PU differences are easily compensated (or created) with simple EQ changes at the amp.
I guess I was 19 or 20, and luthiating pretty heavily, when I noticed that guitar mods that cost just enough to seem significant, but not enough to really hurt, made players the happiest.
So new PU's, a brass nut (man, maybe a thousand brass nuts one year), or new tuners, sent players through the roof in ecstasy. At the same time, a much needed partial fret job went undone.
Go figure.
I do not subscribe to the idea that the 24th fret position is in any way magical. I will not bore you to tears with the physics involved, but my opinion and experience is that pretty much there is a smooth continuum from closer-to-the-bridge to up against the FB (which varies based on the number of frets). There is no discern-able sweet spot at the measured 24th fret location - unless you only play open strings.
My two cents, and worth every penny you paid to read it. Which is about two cents less than,...
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 05-21-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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as far as the "everything is never always equal" argument, I guess it's true to say no 2 guitars, even built identical, will be identical. But they'll be more than close enough for the sake of this particular argument.
Franz' post, comparing/contrasting the Gibson ES175 and L4CES... is the 175's top solid? Or not carved? Did a quick google and it seems the L4CES has a carved top and ebony fretboard, those being the 2 differences in the guitars...leading me to believe the 175's top is either not solid, or at least not carved? Because if so, I think THAT would be a big enough difference to negate the "all else being equal" requirement?
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I'm one who has mentioned more than once this "24th fret" PU position. But I do agree 100% that it's a gradual transistion in tone, not the one and only "magical" spot. It's just that this "24th fret" position is about as close you can get to a normal neck with a humbucker sized PU. I don't know if I'd like the PU much further up, I haven't tried it. I suspect the tone might loose body, becoming too hollow and woofy sounding. So maybe that "24th fret" position - while not magical at all - is a fairly good compromize for a sweet but still clear classic jazz sound. But of course this is subject to personal taste. Many love the 175 exactly because the neck PU is closer to the bridge giving a bit more compactness to the tone. BTW, I think this difference is lesser than what can be obtained by simply changing picking position. Originally Posted by PTChristopher
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>>> maybe that "24th fret" position - while not magical at all - is a fairly good compromize for a sweet but still clear classic jazz sound.
100% agreed. It is probably no more than coincidental, and it does seem to be a sweet region along a continuum.
Once you take into account the attack and otherwise transient harmonics, it gets hard to find the 24th fret position specifically the "right" position.
In my opinion only.
Chris
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The 175 has a laminated top. The top layer is maple - don't ask me what is sandwiched in the middle, but others may know. The laminates on newer 175 instruments are thicker than on older ones (especially those from the 1950s). The fingerboard is rosewood. Originally Posted by ruger9
The L4 CES has a carved spruce top and ebony fingerboard.
Apart from these 2 differencies, there is still the difference in neck PU placement which can also mean a difference in sound.
I'm not too sure. There are so many variables that the difference between carved spruce and laminate may well be minor as compared to other factors. Remember a sprice top isn't just a spruce top. It may be carved thin or thick and it may be braced lightly or heavyly. Spruce tops on CES guitars tends to have thick and heavily braced tops, quite unlike those on acoustic archtops.Because if so, I think THAT would be a big enough difference to negate the "all else being equal" requirement?
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1) doesn't matter. Tone (plugged in) trumps bout size.
2) doesn't matter, tone (plugged in) trumps scale... I have 24.75, 25.0, and 25.5 scales axes... play them all no problem.
3) plugged in primarily... western swing, some swing-ish rockabilly, with band. A nice acoustic tone would be a "plus" for sitting around playing unplugged, but that's just gravy.
A solid, working man's jazzbox, with a bridge pickup to do some 'billy, but a sweet neck tone for the swing stuff.
OH- I totally forgot I had an Ibanez AF75 for about a year... wasn't terribly impressed. Again, going from memory, I didn't like it as much as the Broadway or the Hot Rod.
And I now have the Godin 5th ave kingpin on my radar, altho I didn't want P90s, that can be remedied. I just did an inventory search of the local GC's (yikes!) and no one has a broadway or a godin. I'd love to play these things, which is why the 24 questions... since i'll probably have to by them unplayed, and risk a return.
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I recently bought a Heritage Custom 575 with a Spruce carved top so I think I might have a different perspective in that this guitar is pretty much an ES 175 but without the laminated top. In the past I have used Telecasters and semi-hollow guitars for blues and jazz and thought the were mostly OK but they certainly did not get a truly full bodied tone.
I thought I'd like the spruce top with the single mounted pick up because it would be very different from anything I own. I admit I bought it on-line from a dealer, brand new, based on a gut feeling and a lot of irrational impulse.
Now that I've owned for a month I must say I haven't touched any other guitar since the day I bought it. The tone is absolutely phenomenal and works just as well with chords as it does with single note playing. I can get pretty good volume before the feedback gets unmanageable. There are no dead spots though there are some notes that set off the feedback while most notes don't.
I don't know if a spruce carved top is a better choice for anyone else but this guitar is so different from my others that it is definitely a keeper.
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My question has always been why, other than tradition and superstition, is it important if it sounds like an archtop. I do lug around small guitars. Some are hollow, some are semi hollow but they're all plank-style instruments. They sound like what they are and i think that's just fine. Originally Posted by Hexatonics
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>>> why, other than tradition and superstition, is it important if it sounds like an archtop
In my opinion it is not important at all. But there is a developed sensibility that to many favors the attack/sustain envelope that we associate with archtops.
Definitely it is just one of many ways to make music.
If anything, the current trend is to increasingly explore the capabilities of smaller guitars beyond the basic solid plank.
In my opinion.
Chris
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You mean like how this guy lugs around his : ? What does HE know? Originally Posted by Hexatonics
For someone who cannot spell, gets his punctuation wrong, cannot tell "its" apart from "it's", you sure have some nerve to comment about low IQ.
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All this talk about "bad ears" and "fooling" listeners...
It is easy to trick a listener with the way a guitar sounds. But it is impossible to fool a player with how a guitar feels. The differences among the major construction types are obvious and profound to the person playing the instrument. Far too much blather is spewed on the internet talking about how guitars sound, when it is really the feel that holds all of the subtle differences, and is the reason why every guitarist worth anything as a musician chooses his instrument very critically.
Feel is why ten Telecasters all play differently and those differences are instantly obvious to the player, even though the listener couldn't tell them apart in a million years.
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I love the sound of solid spruce tops .... acoustic and electric
A good laminate can be great as well ... but my ear prefers the solid spruce .. most of the time ... laminate tops are missing something that the solid spruce tops have
Many people think that getting a traditional jazz tone is just turning down the treble ...
but IMHO you go for the traditional archtop style "jazz" guitar so you don't have to turn down the treble ... a good "jazz" guitar already has the tone you want without making massive changes in the EQ ... with a good guitar you want the high end to come through, not have it muffled
But no matter how much you talk specs and details ... it will all come down to the guitar you have in your hands .. either it works for you are not ... the internet gurus can give you guidance, but in the end it will be up to your hands and ears to decide what works for you
and if you are after something non traditional .. then all bets are off ... follow your muse and see what happens
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So far, definitely leaning towards a 17" spruce top, for the tone I THINK I'm after... laminate, unfortunately... can't do $$$ a solid spruce top right now.
Basically, just wanted to know if a maple-topped (laminate) instrument, with the right pickups, can have the same plugged-in tone of a spruce-topped (laminate). I didn't know how much of a role the top wood actually played when plugging a guitar in. I know very well what the difference is acoustically.
Because, if I can go maple top with pickups, there is a huge range of guitars to choose from, some very affordable. But spruce? In the affordable ($<1000) category, I know of only two: the Epi Broadway and the Epi Swingster. I'd be looking at the Broadway.
Heck, if pickups made most of the difference, I could drop some dark TV Jones in my Gretsch Hot Rod, slap on some flatwounds, and be in business. Or buy a Kingpin II (cherry top- beautiful) and replace the P90s with something smoother/warmer. But that's why I started this thread: to get opinions on how much of a difference, plugged in, top wood makes vs. pickups.
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