Professional Grade Instruments. What Does That Actually mean?

[Musically Mr M]

This is a recurring theme that nags me everytime I go into a music store-be it a big box store or a boutique shop. It just seems to me that the most glaring distinction is $$$$$$$$!

Ok. I have a couple degrees in music. (Won't specify the area but let's just say I've been an educator for 30+ years) I perform professionally with a variety of ensembles and I am very proficient on my instrument. That proficiency keeps me consistently employed so...........for whatever that means, I consider myself a professional. As a professional guitarist, I expect my instrument to be able to do a few specific things:

1. Be well made, consistent and reliable
2. To play in tune and reasonably stay in tune
3. To be constructed of quality tonewoods that help capture the nuances of my playing.
4. In regards to electrics (hollowbody, semi-hollow or solid) pickups and electronics should be designed as such that I am able vary tone/color evenly and consistently as my music dictates as well as being reliable and road-worthy as well.
5. The instrument should be visually attractive-not so much for me personally but patrons who hear you play want to see that "beautiful instrument" (not so important but I can share some stories........)

Having said all that, I feel that $500-1000 should always get me a pro-grade instrument (in theory) There are plenty phenomenally good playing instruments out here in that price range. Further, it is my belief that I can for example purchase, let's say a Yamaha eg112 C2 Starter Pack guitar which has an exceptionally nice body (basswood or alder) and a "to die for" neck for $100.00, and spend 200.00 additional dollars in upgrades (ebay is a great place to get pickups and parts cheaply if you know what you're looking for) and even turn that guitar into a tone monster for under $500.00!!

So since in practice, I feel my analysis is pretty sound, again I pose the question "What is a pro-grade instrument?" Is that moniker based on how much money is spent? How many "creature features" (be it functional or simply ornamental) are included?

Shouldn't the common denominator amongst professional grade instruments and price point be the "professional" performer?

Interested in hearing your take on this...........

[rpguitar]

Personally I believe that a certain modest investment (probably around your $500-$1K quote) buys all the guitar any player "needs." I think the term you are asking about is just a bit of arbitrary marketing lingo, and nothing more. It's not an official category of anything.

Also personally, I'm typically not interested in guitars at that price level, simply because I have very particular and, admittedly, somewhat elitist taste. But that's a choice made purely out of desire and not need.

BTW - I frequently think of a hierarchy that I was once told should inform a person's choice of instrument:

1) Playability
2) Tone
3) Looks
4) Value

Value is the last thing on the list. And I think that's right, when a player's perspective is taken into account.

[fep]

What does it mean? Absolutely nothing. It's just marketing

[bborzell]

"Pro grade instrument" means very little to me without a defining context. Professional musicians play all manner of instruments. Whether or not someone likes Willie Nelson, it is hard to argue that he is not a professional musician. Have you ever seen the guitar he plays on stage? It is described as a $700 Martin classical. It looks like it was retrieved from a dumpster. Is it a pro grade instrument?

If there is any validity to the notion of a "pro grade instrument", then I think it has to focus away from the performer and to the builder. Even if it is mass produced, a $500 guitar that is of sound design and build can and will sound and perform admirably for a professional musician.

All the rest of the discussion revolves around esthetics, I believe.

BTW, very nice "noodling" on your Soundclick page.

[mr. beaumont]

I know I'm guilty of using the phrase, so I thought a bit about what it mens...

I guess I used it to mean "rates highly on all levels," Playability, sound, aesthetics, construction, etc...The kind of instrument somebody who has experienced a lot of instruments would appreciate...

A professional need not play a "professional grade" instrument, nor does owning one make you a professional...

[Jazzman301]

A pro grade instrument...in my mind is any instrument that I can take to a gig and make money with. I agree that for anywhere from $500-$1200 you can buy an instrument that is well built and meets all of a players needs. Now if it has a bunch of eye candy and special "master grade AAAAA+" hand carved woods thats another story. I think just about any laminate guitar or solid body can get the job done.

'Mike

[Musically Mr M]

A professional need not play a "professional grade" instrument, nor does owning one make you a professional...

That phrase right there is kind of where I'm at. I recently retired as public school band director and one of the most discouraging concepts to young artist is this thing about stepping up or upgrading an instrument. Do you realize how many young musicians we actually loose behind that kind of rhetoric? It was hard enough for mom/dad to come up with that initial $700-1100 for an entry-level horn. Sheesh!

I have known a few "street musicians" that peddle the streets with unknown instruments and have played some of the most phenominal stuff you've ever heard. I know it's a matter of individual taste but for me, I wouldn't want to own or could even justify for example purchasing an L-5 (if I could find one), a D'Angelico or even a Benedetto (I am partial to those....) on the basis of how well I play (and I do a pretty good job) when I can buy an Artcore and come very close to the sound of these other heralded and over-priced instruments. If that's what you like, then no offense but I'm just saying .........

[cosmic gumbo]

Too me, a pro grade instrument is one that will stand up to the rigors of a gigging musician without failing. You can trust it to keep performing for years with basic maintenance, just like a mechanics tools. Hello telecaster.

[mr. beaumont]

That phrase right there is kind of where I'm at. I recently retired as public school band director and one of the most discouraging concepts to young artist is this thing about stepping up or upgrading an instrument. Do you realize how many young musicians we actually loose behind that kind of rhetoric? It was hard enough for mom/dad to come up with that initial $700-1100 for an entry-level horn. Sheesh!

I have known a few "street musicians" that peddle the streets with unknown instruments and have played some of the most phenominal stuff you've ever heard. I know it's a matter of individual taste but for me, I wouldn't want to own or could even justify for example purchasing an L-5 (if I could find one), a D'Angelico or even a Benedetto (I am partial to those....) on the basis of how well I play (and I do a pretty good job) when I can buy an Artcore and come very close to the sound of these other heralded and over-priced instruments. If that's what you like, then no offense but I'm just saying .........

I definitely know where you're coming from...

It doesn't help as so many of our idols growing up play some nice stuff...for every Willie Nelson there's 20 cats with Gibsons...

The prestige factor is alluring, as is the "commitment factor" as I call it...if someone who makes as little money as a musician does can scrap enough together for an expensive instrument, then surely they are dedicated...right?....right?....

I own cheap and more expensive instruments (nothing too extravagant, my nicest guitar (and my latest, which hasn't arrived yet) were bought used and would have been WAY out of my price range new) I've found that I do like certain aspects of the more expensive instruments that the cheaper stuff doesn't give me...I think it's important too, for me to sit down and figure out what those things are, and how true they are in reality...

I mean, if all I had was my $500 Godin, could I still do everything musically I can do on something that cost 3-4-5 times as much? Yep.

[Musically Mr M]

Yes its just a marketing term.

It makes no sense to me if you think it relates to an instruments ability to 'work' for you. Many professionals want different things from their guitars. Some what light and fragile for tone in the studio. Some want sturdy and feedback resistant for gigging. With that in mind a professional grade instrument cant mean any of those things, because they are contradictory.

Wasnt it some sort of logo on early asian copies from japan. They were always obsessed with calling their stuff 'professional' because they wanted pro's to think that they were up to the job. Even if that wasnt always the case.

Then you get the student models. Do I need to provide my student ID to buy one?

+1 to that amswer.

[bborzell]

It has been brought to my attention that some jazz guitar affectionados might consider my earlier comment to Musically Mr M ("BTW, very nice "noodling" on your Soundclick page.") as something short of a true compliment as the term "noodling" apparently carries a negative connotation to some.

Two things come to mind in this instance. One is that the video clip on Musically Mr M's Soundclick page uses the term "noodling" in the title and, the quality of his playing stands on its own. I enjoyed the clip.

Oh, there is a third thing. In my humble opinion, anyone who takes offense at a word as it pertains to jazz when that word doesn't really have a negative denotation in the real world has too much time on their hands.

[stevedenver]

What does it mean? Absolutely nothing. It's just marketing

precisely

more jargon to make you think everything else is amateur or somehow sub-par
-and that you're one (an amateur), not serious, etc, if you dont buy 'professional'-
or to justify the very high price of a 'tool'-you must make your living using the tool (the true dictionary definition of a pro versus amateur)


its actually the type of descriptor i dislike-
like 'world class' in regard to a ford pick up truck-remember that ad campaign?

while im sure others can come up with many examples-
lets see all the 'sub standard' players

the ones that come to mind

emily remler-playing that 'beginners' ES 330 (as compared to the 335-the 330 was the entry semi-one pick up, short neck, no blocking under pups)
leslie west-didnt he play a LP junior?
seems to me also ive seen tom white with...an all plastic airline electric-or was it a National map??

lets see, when you go to the legends of blues,
huddy ledbetter played a stella-(probably not too bad at the time, but no gibson)
i think blind boy fuller played Kay, etc-


and of course jimmy page with a danelectro-if there was ever truly a student type guitar-and of course , his harmony sovereign-used on Bron y aur, LZ III , (had one, great guitars, but also a student guitar)

i simply think, aside from aesthetics and 'stuff' a player digs, its a tool, you like the feel, the sound, etc-it either is your choice or not-and within your budget, or not

this isnt to say theres no difference, i just dislike the descriptor, designed to make you think everything esle is inferior or substandard-ie a mind closer as to intrinsic value of an instrument-someones already made that decision for you (since we're all too dull to know all by ourselves)

and truly, to the OP's point, think of the ubiquitous strat...i have seen amazing players, including jazzers use them-not necessarily an expensive guitar, but one heck of a versatile great playing and sounding guitar-and often very affordable

its often said, but while tools are indeed important, most often its the giften and practised player that breathes life and soul into whatever they play.
otoh, back when big bands were around, and tradition stronger, a conspicuously pricey instrument was a badge of status-still is

that being said, i still lust after stuff i dont need , an L5, 400, perhaps a D 45, and other functional 'art'-

never played any guitar that i couldnt find something about it to like

[Musically Mr M]

It has been brought to my attention that some jazz guitar affectionados might consider my earlier comment to Musically Mr M ("BTW, very nice "noodling" on your Soundclick page.") as something short of a true compliment as the term "noodling" apparently carries a negative connotation to some.

Two things come to mind in this instance. One is that the video clip on Musically Mr M's Soundclick page uses the term "noodling" in the title and, the quality of his playing stands on its own. I enjoyed the clip.

Oh, there is a third thing. In my humble opinion, anyone who takes offense at a word as it pertains to jazz when that word doesn't really have a negative denotation in the real world has too much time on their hands.

Mr. Borzell, rest assured that I did not take the comment as an insult. Different people have own varied perceptions of word usage. "Noodling" to me is a spontaneous practice session .....accompanied or unaccompanied utilizing various progressions, (perceived or heard) to construct improvisations, work on patterns, scales, etc. Noodling keeps my solo work spontaneous and sharp.......

.....so I was not offended. Now, "wanking" would have been a different animal altogether

[Cunamara]

This is a recurring theme that nags me everytime I go into a music store-be it a big box store or a boutique shop. It just seems to me that the most glaring distinction is $$$$$$$$!

Heh. It's a PT Barnum deal. Appeal to the egos and the insecurities of the moderately skilled player who wants to feel better and sell 'em up. "You wanna hang with the big boys, but this."

As for "professional grade," the ES-175 was intended to be an entry level guitar.

I play most of my gigs on a modified Squier Tele. Plays great and I pretty much sound like me, just like I do on my carvetop or my other "good" guitars. On a recording I can hardly tell which guitar I am playing.

[Larry M]

Lots of great thoughts. I think Roger (rpguitar) summed up my thoughts and experience: playability (got to be able to get around on it), tone (I have to like it even if the audience doesn't notice), looks, value.

[foxpudding]

I think the term "professional grade" is to an instrument what "collector's edition" is to an item from the Franklin mint.

[oldane]

I know it's a matter of individual taste but for me, I wouldn't want to own or could even justify for example purchasing an L-5 (if I could find one), a D'Angelico or even a Benedetto (I am partial to those....)

I actually own a Benedetto Fratello I had built by Bob in the mid 1990s when they still had a price I could pay. It's a great instrument for acoustic single string and chord melody playing at a reasonably intimate sound level. It also has impeccable workmanship. However, for me, it's not the perfect guitar for old fashioned Freddie Green rhythm playing (it's too delicately built), so I have two other acoustic archtops for that. With its floating pickup, it feeds back easily and it doesn't give me the amplifed tone I'm after. I can even get there easier with my Fender Highway Strat (set up for jazz with flatwounds) or my old Gibson 175 or my recently aquired Painter. I must admit that I hadn't really realized that when I ordered the Benedetto back then. I more or less had expected a do-it-all guitar. I learned quite a bit from that. I think that now I do know what I want and what is possible. Looking back, for my use, I might have been better off with a Gibson WesMo - but of course the Benedetto has turned out to be a good investment. During the last couple of years I have had two guitars custom made for me, and I have been very strict with the specs I wanted on those.

I don't say this to put down Bobs guitars. They are really great for what they are built for. But I have learnt that no guitars are all-purpose and each player has his own preferencies. One shouldn't be too preoccupied with big brand names and ad phrases like "professional grade". If possible, make your own opinion beforehand on what YOU want and like in terms of sound and ergonomy - and why. Then stick to that. If a given guitar sounds and plays the way you want it and is within you budget, then it's the guitar to get no matter the name on the headstock or the "gradation" given by the ad writers.

[gianluca]

I think that a professional instrument is what allows a professional player to express his fullest potential, that stimulates him, an instrument that will give him maximum pleasure to play and which allows to bring out all his music without missing a nuance.
not simply an instrument that works well and is reliable...

[mangotango]

Mr. Borzell, rest assured that I did not take the comment as an insult. Different people have own varied perceptions of word usage. "Noodling" to me is a spontaneous practice session .....accompanied or unaccompanied utilizing various progressions, (perceived or heard) to construct improvisations, work on patterns, scales, etc. Noodling keeps my solo work spontaneous and sharp.......

.....so I was not offended. Now, "wanking" would have been a different animal altogether

You're absolutely right. I don't know what connotations attach to that expression over on your side of the pond, but over here it is offensive and not something to be used in ordinary conversation.

I would say "Sorry if I seem prudish" but you know what? I'm really not. I'm not trying to take offence, just as I try not to give offence unless I mean it. However, it is an offensive term which I cannot really see having a place on such a good-natured forum (OK, few exceptions!) as this.

[Bluedawg]

For guitars I would say the phrase means less now than it did 30 or so years ago ..

Inexpensive beginners guitars in the 70s and 80s were junk ....

If you wanted something you could actually play you had to spend a little money

These days you can get some impressive guitars for $250 to $600.

If you take inflation into account this is probably $100 or $200 in 1980.

A $150 guitar or even a $250 guitar in 1980 could be pretty rotten.

And of course there is a marketing aspect to it ... balanced by the fact that you get what you pay for .... at least untill the law of diminishing returns starts kicking in .... at which point you start getting into "collectors grade"

[AlohaJoe]

"Professional grade" means the salesman gets a bigger commission.

[fumblefingers]

This is a recurring theme that nags me everytime I go into a music store-be it a big box store or a boutique shop. It just seems to me that the most glaring distinction is $$$$$$$$!

Ok. I have a couple degrees in music. (Won't specify the area but let's just say I've been an educator for 30+ years) I perform professionally with a variety of ensembles and I am very proficient on my instrument. That proficiency keeps me consistently employed so...........for whatever that means, I consider myself a professional. As a professional guitarist, I expect my instrument to be able to do a few specific things:

1. Be well made, consistent and reliable
2. To play in tune and reasonably stay in tune
3. To be constructed of quality tonewoods that help capture the nuances of my playing.
4. In regards to electrics (hollowbody, semi-hollow or solid) pickups and electronics should be designed as such that I am able vary tone/color evenly and consistently as my music dictates as well as being reliable and road-worthy as well.
5. The instrument should be visually attractive-not so much for me personally but patrons who hear you play want to see that "beautiful instrument" (not so important but I can share some stories........)

Having said all that, I feel that $500-1000 should always get me a pro-grade instrument (in theory) There are plenty phenomenally good playing instruments out here in that price range. Further, it is my belief that I can for example purchase, let's say a Yamaha eg112 C2 Starter Pack guitar which has an exceptionally nice body (basswood or alder) and a "to die for" neck for $100.00, and spend 200.00 additional dollars in upgrades (ebay is a great place to get pickups and parts cheaply if you know what you're looking for) and even turn that guitar into a tone monster for under $500.00!!

So since in practice, I feel my analysis is pretty sound, again I pose the question "What is a pro-grade instrument?" Is that moniker based on how much money is spent? How many "creature features" (be it functional or simply ornamental) are included?

Shouldn't the common denominator amongst professional grade instruments and price point be the "professional" performer?

Interested in hearing your take on this...........

seems reasonable, but, i think that items 3 and 5 can really drive pricing, depending on degree intended by "quality" tonewoods and nuances of playing, and "ornamental" appearance.

those items can take you into "collector grade" territory pretty quickly, which is something different altogether.

[Pierrot]

Instruments that allow you to play with your best SOUND with PLEASURE.

[Barret]

U know .Im alwsays playing different guitars....always looking and experimenting.....Im professional ...just trying to play and survive...but u know ..For me it comes down to ....Do I like the guitar ??? Vague . I know ! Does it do something for me ....Move Me ...Make me sound good...Feel good in my hand....Sort of "Fit me" ..Can i afford it ? .... Over & out ..Barret

[fumblefingers]

how do these fit the description? over or under?