Humbucker help

[miken]

I recently got a Telecaster Blackout, which is just a MIM Tele with two standard humbuckers. I love the feel and playability, I just don't really like the pickups. They just don't have a lot of ....tone, I guess. I have Duncan Classic 59's in a Sheraton and I love those, But I don't want to just do that again. Any suggestions? I will be playing jazz and here and there blues/rock. I use 11 guage flats on this guitar. Thanks in advance for any input or suggestions.

[Retroman1969]

You could upgrade to a Gibson '57 Classic PAF, or go for a Charlie Christian Tele pickup (even though it's really a humbucker-sized single coil) which is a popular and highly praised choice for jazz and/or blues Teles.
If it were me, those are the first two options I'd look seriously at.

[marcwhy]

I only use pickups from Tom Short in California. His "Tombuckers" would be great for you. Give him a call, and talk with him about what kind of "sound" you want, and he'll make you some fantastic p-ups.

Tom Short's Guitar Pickups

[oldane]

I'm a big fan of CC like PU's. Since you already have humbucker mounts, a Vintage Vibe (Pete Biltoft) HCC or a Jason Lollar CC in humbucker shape would be an obvious direct swap which doesn't need any routing or drilling. Both are excellent. You can order the HCC with magnets in different strengths at your choice - weaker magnets like Alnico II for a darker mellow tone and stronger magnets like ceramic for a brighter more "hot" tone. I have the Vintage Vibe HCC with Alnico II magnets in two of my guitars and love them, but since you also play sme blues and rock, Alnico V (or maybe even ceramic?) may be a better compromize for you. Pete Biltoft ships the PU with an extra set of magnets, so you can ask him to install Alnico V and pack a spare set of Alnico II with the PU for that sweet jazz tone.

Vintage Vibe Guitars

Charlie Christian Pickups

The CC type PUs are single coil and will as such hum a bit more than humbuckers. You can get a long way by shielding the PU cavities and harness channels with copper foil and connect it to ground (be sure no leads tuch the shield or you'll get no sound at all). If single coils are unacceptable for you for consider one of the humbuckers suggested above.

[robertm2000]

I'd second pickups from Pete Biltoft, of

vitagevibeguitars.com

He builds superb quailty pickups, and is anxious to talk with his customers (I encountered a a very nasty salesman at one of the big boutique makers, which put me off of that maker's pickups), to make sure you get exactly what you need. He can build one of a kind custom pickups if you have a unique instrument. He includes your choice of two kinds of easily installable magnets with each pickup And his prices are as reasonable as any boutique style pickup make.

I put two of his pickups, including a CCRider Charlie Chrstian-style pickup in a guitar I put together from parts, and it worked so well I sold every one of my previous dozen electrics. I can't praise Pete's work enough!

[PTChristopher]

Miken,

I hope one of these suggestions helps you find a pickup that you like better.

I'm not sure how you will decide what is 'better', 'great', an 'upgrade', or otherwise more in the direction you wish to go.

In my opinion, pickups sound like they do for reasons of design. The coils, magnets, pole pieces, and general shape of the PU do affect the sound. It is also my opinion that many PAF-inspired pickups sound very similar. It is not that they are identical, but that the differences are far less that you would notice via a little height and pole piece adjustment, or by opening the drapes in the room in which you are playing (or otherwise slightly changing the acoustics in the room.)

I suggest having a better idea of how your current pickups are falling short, and what it is about new pickups that will improve upon this.

But this suggestion may be out of line. It is certainly inconsistent with the remarkable number of PU "upgrades" that make the guitar sound better to the owner. But sometimes it is hard to find any clear connection between the PU change and the reported (and "improved") tone change.

I am not suggesting that in most cases there is no actual practical "tone" change. But rather that in some cases, it may be better to get a clear idea of what kind of sound change you are after before throwing $$$ at the problem.

Of course, if a guitar sounds better to a player after a PU change, and the actual cost was not all that bad, then what does it matter if I can not manage to necessarily understand the actual source of the sound difference.

But to me it is sounding like ready, fire, aim.

Ready: "lacks tone"

Fire: get new PUs from Boutiquenford Magnetwire, his are excellent.

Aim: ????

Anyway - many, many players are very happy with new pickups and would not be more so via my take on the subject.

Chris

[korey-craft]

go gretsch!

[JensL]

Check out this guy, he makes really good pickups:
Panucci Custom Guitars - masterbuilt for tone

Jens

[fauves]

go gretsch!

yeah why not try some T.V. Jones in there. Lots of folks have been putting them in teles as of late. I have the classics in a guitar and they are pretty amazing. You can get anything you want out of them

[miken]

All of these suggestions sound great, thanks guys. I'm not sure that I'm going to go the boutique route for a $400 guitar, I'm thinking more Semour Duncan stuff. However, I will be looking into these makers for a replacement for my Eastman AR371, which I love, but again I don't care for the pickup that much. PTChristopher, if I am reading your reply correctly, it sounds like you don't think an upgrade makes a difference. I would respecfully disagree with that. What I don't like about the stock Fender pickups is that they're muddy and dull, if that makes sense.
As a side note, I am thinking of the Lollar HCC for the Eastman. I love Barney Kessel's tone and I would like to try the CC. Before anyone replies, I know it's his playing - not his pickup. But... Thanks again for all of the great suggestions.
Another side note. The Gretsch suggestions are interesting. I have played guitar for 25 years and no less than 35 guitars have been in my collection and can you believe that I have never played a Gretsch. I tried a G100 acoustic once for a minute, that's it. Maybe I should play one.

[PTChristopher]

Hi Miken,

>>> PTChristopher, if I am reading your reply correctly, it sounds like you don't think an upgrade makes a difference. I would respecfully disagree with that.

Thanks for the reply.

I think that sometimes a PU change makes quite a difference. And sometimes it makes either a minor or a random (or at least "untargetted") difference.

In my opinion the ideal situation of both a genuine and significant difference, AND the difference that the player wanted, happens when you can describe as much as possible about what you do not currently like.

Or in short, I was suggesting:

1. A lack of "tone" was not a good way to target a specific new pickup selection.

2. Recommendations for someone's personal experience with a given maker, with no idea of what you do not like about your current situation, may not be all that effective.

3. I am wrong a lot, and players sometimes love changes that seemingly do not address the stated original problem.

>>> What I don't like about the stock Fender pickups is that they're muddy and dull, if that makes sense.

Makes sense to me. As do many non-technical terms, for example,

"Lacks Spank" = weak upper mids in the attack

There are MANY PU choices out there. I am of the opinion that the more you know and describe about your current PU's, the better you can choose the right direction for a replacement.

Someone may recommend Ferg McAlnico's fantastic custom wound PU, but if it is designed for smooth attack and fat response, it may send you in exactly the wrong direction.

Are the stock PU's Duncan-made? Or can you get any info whatsoever on them? This can help in comparing to a new PU.

At what height are the PU's currently - as measured from the top of the pole pieces to the E strings when the E strings are fretted at the highest fret?

All in my opinion. And many players are very happy ignoring the stuff and just getting a new PU based on discussion with a PU maker.

Chris

[cosmic gumbo]

Sometimes it's more about the amp than the pickups.

[PTChristopher]

To say nothing of the pick, assuming you use one.

[Retroman1969]

As a side note, I am thinking of the Lollar HCC for the Eastman. I love Barney Kessel's tone and I would like to try the CC.

If you do, you'll have to report in on that one for sure. I have toyed with the idea of a similar swap in my 371.

[oldane]

In my opinion, pickups sound like they do for reasons of design. The coils, magnets, pole pieces, and general shape of the PU do affect the sound. It is also my opinion that many PAF-inspired pickups sound very similar. It is not that they are identical, but that the differences are far less that you would notice via a little height and pole piece adjustment, or by opening the drapes in the room in which you are playing (or otherwise slightly changing the acoustics in the room.)

I have several times recommended the Vintage Vibe HCC PU here in this forum.

Despite this, I can follow you almost all the way. The PU is not what makes the greatest difference in sound. At least not a difference which in most cases can't easily be levelled out with an adjustment of the EQ. I also agree with your point about raising or lowering the PU which can change the sound - maybe more with single coils than with humbuckers (?).

I have read a lot of people saying that replacing the PUs on cheaper guitars of far eastern origin have meant a great improvement in sound, more specifically the clarity of sound and note separation. So many have said it, that I figure there is some truth in it. But I don't know for shure as I have no personal expirience with those cheaper asian PUs.

However, there's one point where I think there's a "generic" difference between many/some humbuckers (I have not tried that many) and single coil PUs. Many/some humbucker has a tendency to sound somewhat muddy in the bass when the EQ is set for a mellow top, while the top can tend to become overly bright when the bottum is set for clarity. This is not so easy to EQ away (for me at least). For my preferred tone, a single coil gives a better overall balance, and a greater clarity and note separation in chords. I have HCCs in two of my gutars and they work well for me, so I see no reason to go on experimenting, but I could likely have used a lot of other single coil PUs and got the same tone - maybe with a slightly different EQ. I have a partscaster with a HCC in the neck position, but to be frank my Strat with the original Strat PU in the neck position doesn't sound significantly different when I have dialled in my preferred tone. I also once tried to replace the pickguard with the whole harness in the Strat with one Pete Biltoft made for me with the small Strat shaped "P90"s he makes. I couldn't hear any difference in sound from the original setup. Other details like choice of string (gauge, flatwound/roundwound, nickel/steel), pick choice, picking position means much more to the tone. A stock strat with say TI 13-53 flatwounds and a not too low action can sound wonderfully jazzy in the classic way with no twang or clanginess.

And again (forgive me) one of my my pet subjects: The placement of the PU along the string length is not without importance. A PU placed closer to the neck (like on a strat) will sound more spread and lush, whereas a PU placed closer to the bridge (like on an ES 175) will sound more compact and midrangy. Outside of the normal classic neck PU jazz tone context, one will hear this difference more clearly when comparing the sound of the neck and the mid PUs of a Strat. To elaborate on this effect, Gibson made the "Grabber" bass with a sliding PU for a time back in the 1970s, but though it was endorsed by the bass player from "Kiss" it never really caught on.

[PTChristopher]

Hi OD,

100% agreed that there are significant differences in PU's in many cases. There is the classic single coil vs. HB. And some really significant differences based on the structure of a PU.

P-90s and their flat coils have a really distinctive sound setting them apart from many narrow single coil PUs.

The Filtertron shape and high pole pieces also have a distinct sound vs. other HB pickups. And in my opinion Filtertron-type pickups have some quirks in getting balanced response form the high E (but MANY players sound great with these PUs).

And as you note, some really good designers make wonderful pickups that combine features of one classic type (like bucking hum) while getting the sound of anther type.

>>> I have read a lot of people saying that replacing the PUs on cheaper guitars of far eastern origin have meant a great improvement in sound,

And this is the sort of thing that really struck me when I stated doing guitar work in quantity.

Often, the choice of PU made no sense vs. the player's stated problems with the current PU. I'd go ahead and change it, and they would love the new sound - often when it was really indistinguishable from the original, or when it sounded "worse" based on the player's original complaint.

>>> So many have said it, that I figure there is some truth in it.

I know what you mean, but I also think there is some group-inertia to this feeling that may not always be based on the PU's themselves.

In my opinion (and I know this will be rude to someone, somewhere), the cost and downtime of a PU change is ideal for giving just the right sense of effort and cost to encourage a serious feeling of change and improvement.

I really, really do understand that in may cases there is genuine sound change and improvement.

But to my eyes/ears I have seen/heard many situations where a few days without a guitar, and just enough cash to make a noticeable (but not truly painful) sacrifice seem to be the source of pretty much all of the "tone" in the new PU's.

So when the descriptions of sound get pretty vague, and the "tone quacks" kick in with their all-purpose claims, I get quite skeptical about the real source of the "improvement".

But a given player's happiness with their guitar is a far higher ideal than my opinion of the nuts and bolts of many situations.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

>>> The placement of the PU along the string length is not without importance.

Yes, definitely. In my view it is all about harmonic mix along the string. Closer to the bridge the PU is exposed to much lower amplitude at the primary frequency of the string vibration, making the harmonic vibrations relatively "louder".

Chris

[Jazzman301]

The HCC pickup from Pete Biltoft is an AWESOME pickup. Pete ships fast and is delight to deal with.
Humbucker-size Blade Style Single Coil Pickups

The Benedetto A6 and B6 are both great pickups. My nod goes to the A6 and that was the pickup recomended to me by Bob himself.
Benedetto Pickups

At $105 with free shipping I have not been able to find a better price ANYWHERE.
Then you have the HANDWOUND Kent Armstrong PAF(which can be coil tapped and man that pickup is just amazing). His handwound humbucker sized single coils/P90s have good reviews as well.
Kent Armstrong Adjustable Built-In PAF (Handmade)

Mike has the besst prices I have found for the KA stuff as well as the Benedetto pickups.
Then you have the offerings from Jason Lollar. His Charlie Christian pickup is very nice. His Imperial humbucker also is a very nice sounding pickup for jazz in either the standard or high wind models.
Humbucker Pickups

Charlie Christian Pickups

In terms of best bang for the buck I recomend the Pete Biltoft HCC or one of his custom wound humuckers. The HCC is very warm and pretty low noise for single coil and almost as quiet as a HB. Next I would say the Benedetto. Both Benedetto pickups can be coil tapped for versatility. Price wise they are a little cheaper than getting something from Pete...but not by much.

Hope this helps.

P.S that HCC pickup is a really gorgeous pickup and well balanced. Its warm and articulate and never muddy. You can easily go from dark Jim Hall, Pat Partino, Wes like tones to brighter Joe Pass like tones with a simple turn of the tone knob.

'Mike

[Jazz_175]

Then you have the HANDWOUND Kent Armstrong PAF(which can be coil tapped and man that pickup is just amazing). His handwound humbucker sized single coils/P90s have good reviews as well.
Kent Armstrong Adjustable Built-In PAF (Handmade)

Mike has the besst prices I have found for the KA stuff as well as the Benedetto pickups.

Hey JazzMan, could you please explain what happens when you coil tap the KA PAF. Does it become like a single coil?

[Harleyboy]

I recommend that you talk to Pete at Vintage Vibe..He is a really nice guy and will try to steer you in the right direction.

[miken]

Thanks again to everyone for their suggestions. I have decided to hold off on changing the pickups in the Tele for a while. However, because of this thread I have ordered a Vintage Vibe Charlie Christian (humbucker sized) and i will put it in my Eastman AR371. I'm hoping to have it by this weekend or so. I will report back.
Thanks Again

[b_goat]

Hi miken,

Have you tried round-wound strings on the Tele? Flats would definitely make it sound duller, IMHO.

b_goat

[mongrel]

Hi miken,

Have you tried round-wound strings on the Tele? Flats would definitely make it sound duller, IMHO.

b_goat

I have .013 Chromes on my Peavey Reactor AX tele clone with a Vintage Vibe low wind HCC in the neck position and no bridge pickup. The body is heavy ash and the tones are definitely not dull except with the tone control all the way down and with both pots full on the sound is sort of glassy and shimmering like where Frisell goes frequently. I had a pair of the same pickups in a full hollow with TI Swings and they were way too bright. Now those pickups are in a semi that has Gretsch flats and they are just right.

[Retroman1969]

Thanks again to everyone for their suggestions. I have decided to hold off on changing the pickups in the Tele for a while. However, because of this thread I have ordered a Vintage Vibe Charlie Christian (humbucker sized) and i will put it in my Eastman AR371. I'm hoping to have it by this weekend or so. I will report back.
Thanks Again

I, for one, am anxious to hear about it.

[jazzbow]

Thanks again to everyone for their suggestions. I have decided to hold off on changing the pickups in the Tele for a while. However, because of this thread I have ordered a Vintage Vibe Charlie Christian (humbucker sized) and i will put it in my Eastman AR371. I'm hoping to have it by this weekend or so. I will report back.
Thanks Again

Nice choice!

It seems OD, Robert and myself are always praising Mr Bilcrofts VV CC pickup, you won't be disappointed.

Furthermore you can swap out the magnets. I ordered Alnico 2 + 5 magnets and found the '5' too crisp but the '2' through a valve amp the dogs danglies!

I initially wired the pickup with 500k log pots for both volume and tone with a Film and Foil Capacitor 0.022 @ 200v. The tone taper was gradual with full tone at 3/4. I recently decided to try and capture a more Chas. Christian sound so I swapped the pickup magnets to Alnico 2, the tone pot for a 250k log pot and changed the capacitor to an Orange Drop .047 @ 400v.


The sound is darker for sure but the tone control for me is simpler to use!
By this I mean that there are 3 settings, 1/3 goes from crisp to more lows on the bottom strings, 2/3 the bottom strings really thicken up with the top strings still retaining some brightness, ideal for walking bass & comping and finally the full turn gets you muddy thick!

Hope this helps