Valve Amps, Wattage and Headroom

[Gabe]

I did a quick search and nothing really came up on this topic.

Basically I'm interested to see what your opinions are when it comes to valve amps and wattage - also the issues with portability are always something to consider.

Coming from a background in rock music, I'm quite used to slugging around big amps in order to get enough volume and tone. However with some of the venues I've been playing jazz gigs in, rocking up with an AC30 is proving a bit impractical - additionally the tone I get from the Vox doesn't make me 100% happy either.

So I was wondering what your opinions are on the matter? I know a lot of you like solid state amps, and these are a different approach - I use a ZT Lunchbox frequently and get pretty good results. Anyway so what kind of power valve amps do you guys like to use?

[cosmic gumbo]

Some guys claim they can get a giggable clean tone from a 15w Princeton or Blues jr. I question if they would stay clean enough for sextet volumes or larger jazz bands. Most agree that a Twin reverb is overkill at 85-135w. Great sound, but too heavy and more power than you can use.

I have an original 22w '68 Deluxe reverb that leaves little clean headroom comping in a big band, but all the tones from that amp are the sweetest. The DR reissues have a bit more clean headroom.

I can't imagine needing more than a 40w tube amp to cover most clean jazz requirements. Seems to be a lot of love for 30w Peaveys.

[jorgemg1984]

Well firs you must define "clean". That's much easier to do with solid state amps because their distortion is so ugly. With tube amps you can from clean to "some hair" to overdrive.

Then it depends on size of the ensemble, size of the room and, perhaps most important, miced / umiced and with monitors / without monitors.

In an umiced gig with several instruments, which happens to me too often (or even if it's miced it's without monitors, this means the amp has to be heard on the stage), a Twin is not too much. Not only because of the extra watts but also because it's a large 2x12 cabinet and it fills the stage / room much better. And it's preferable to have the volume and 3 and have extra volume if you need than the opposite.

But my definition of clean is 100% clean, no hint of overdrive. And I like loud interactive drummers. For a small unmiced trio club a DR should do fine, depends on the drummer I guess.

Since Twins are heavy and I don't have roadies and buying tubes every year is expensive I have solid state amps A small jazz head and a 2x12 cab are more than enough for the gigs I mentioned.

[Gabe]

That's interesting. Seem I'm in two minds at the moment, on the one hand I'd love a Fender Twin - the idea of so much clean head room is very appealing, also the way they interact so well with pedals and would fit in perfectly well in a rock setting too is very attractive. However The idea of having a smaller amp that stays clean enough in jazz settings is interesting too - I've got my eye on a Wienbrock ME3 Pro at the moment too.

So what do you guys think? Should I be more concerned about buying a twin then dealing with the many portability issues, or should I go for a smaller amp and just mic it if I need to be much louder?

I think the perfect level of volume I've had is from my ZT Lunchbox, on full volume (with gain around 1 or 2 o'clock) it's perfect for the big band stuff, then it can go quiet enough for smaller ensemble work. What kind of valve wattage/amps do you think offer a similar level of output?

[jorgemg1984]

Gabe honestly that's up to you to decide... I can tell you I got my jazzmaster ultralight because the stock cab is a 12 and weights 6 kgs and I really needed such a small / light / loud and clean / good sounding amp. I loved it so much I got two extra cabs, much bigger than the stock one to large gigs and a Roland AC-60 to have in my car for small jams / gigs / reharsals and leave the jazzmaster ultralight more often at home. Now I am just going to get a backup for the jazzmaster ultralight and I am done.

If I had more gigs maybe I would get a good tube head (since I already have two good cabs no point on getting a combo). But right now I cannot justify having one - expensive to buy, expensive to maintain and heavy to carry. And the JMUL sounds so good I don't even miss them that much.

If weight is your issue getting a tube head / cab setup is dividing the weight in two liftable parts usually. And with a tube head you can get a convertible cab and use it closed or open - with tube combos it must be open cab to prevent the tubes from overheat.

About power some guys claim they can gig with drummers with an unmiced Blues Junior. That is NOT my experience, but I hate soft drummers. Again it depends on the size of your gigs and access to PA / monitors.

PS - The amp you mentioned is a Tweed (lots of mids), it should sound quite different from a Twin or a Deluxe (scooped mids).

[eddy b.]

Hey Gabe I have owned a Fender Twin and it is a great sound but currently I use a 45watt Rivera Clubster...is has a clean channel and then an overdive channel with a boost feature that puts it in the "Boogie" sound. I define "clean" sound as being able to hear each note in a complex chord this amp does that very well it's clean is pristine(ha). I gig alot and I find the portability and smaller size to be a big advantage over a twin.

[Nuff Said]

I own an old Blackface Fender Deluxe Reverb, it doesn't have a lot of head room, but I don't play loud.

I have to say that I prefer chords with solid state amp sound.

Nuff

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Didn't Wes use a Super Reverb? 40W, 4x10"? Sounds ideal if I could only get someone else to hump it around.

[Keira Witherkay]

Yeah i think a lot depends on your style and how loud your gigs are, i own a 15w tube amp with single 12" , and for my gigs with drummer using brushes i don't need to drive it past 5 ever but admitedly my gigs are medium to low volume , always remember a great mod with say a 15w tube amp is to replace the speaker with a more efficient one my current speaker is about 94 - db but cannabis rex is something closer to 101 db and as i understand as little as 4 - 5 db increase in efficiency will almost double the perceived volume or so i was told so as far as i seen a lot of guys use 15w princetons and replace the speaker and there are a few mods which allow a tube amp to stay clean at higher volumes

[Gabe]

always remember a great mod with say a 15w tube amp is to replace the speaker with a more efficient one my current speaker is about 94 - db but cannabis rex is something closer to 101 db and as i understand as little as 4 - 5 db increase in efficiency will almost double the perceived volume or so i was told so as far as i seen a lot of guys use 15w princetons and replace the speaker and there are a few mods which allow a tube amp to stay clean at higher volumes

Now that's interesting, it reminds me of when I plugged my Vox into my friends 2x12 and switched off the vox's speakers, instantly seemed a whole lot louder.

So maybe something like the Wienbrock or a Deluxe Reverb with a Cannabis Rex speaker could be a great tool.

What other 1x12 Fender style amps are there? I'm looking used, for an amp preferably with 6l6 valves.

[Bluedawg]

I've been using a Carr Rambler with my swing band gigs ..

Rambler Carr Amplifiers

It hangs in there with 3 or 4 trumpets, 2 to 4 trombones, and usually 5 saxophones .. and the drums and bass. Sounds great.

It's a little bright for home playing ... which may be why it sounds so good with a band

It's only 40lbs (18.1 Kilos) and easy to carry ... especially since I got a nice hand truck to roll it in on.

I've had mine for about 10 years now ... they are pricey now

I just picked up a new Deluxe Reverb reissue ... its perfect for home so far ... rock and jazz .... haven't tried it with a band yet.

[Gabe]

I just picked up a new Deluxe Reverb reissue ... its perfect for home so far ... rock and jazz .... haven't tried it with a band yet.

Please report back when you've had a go.

I've also began to reconsider an Ampeg Gemini (if I can find one) they pop up every now and then over here on ebay, with a more efficient speaker that could be perfect.

[jorgemg1984]

No doubt something like a C Rex will make the amp louder and it's a good match for Fender amps - but don't forget cabinet size, that helps a lot also.

The funny thing is all 1x12 classic fender blackface amps are 6v6 like the deluxe and the princeton. 6l6 have other configurarions: vibrolux (2x10) twin and pro (2x12), vibroverb (1x15).

But you can always check other builders, there are plenty of takes on the 1x12 6l6 - Music Man RD-112 (50w) are usually fine and also Fender Concert amps from the Rivera era on Fender have good reputation (60w 1x12). Ben Monder uses the former and Lage Lund the latter (although both are moded)

[campfire]

+1 on the Deluxe Reverb. That's a good compromise between great tone, headroom and portability. As I get older, I find portability becomes more important. I personally use an ES- 175 and a 15watt Princeton clone. If I need more headroom I use a 6L6 Princeton clone with beefed up tranny. They are both very portable and sound great. If I need to be louder than that...the band's too #$%^ing loud!

[whosgarethparry]

hey guys,
this idea of replacing the speaker to get more headroom intrigues me.
i have a 79 silverface deluxe reverb, which has the original speaker in it, do you think if i changed the speaker i could get more volume, therefore more headroom before it crunches up??
cheers for any input, this stuff is like voodoo to me.

[jorgemg1984]

hey guys,
this idea of replacing the speaker to get more headroom intrigues me.
i have a 79 silverface deluxe reverb, which has the original speaker in it, do you think if i changed the speaker i could get more volume, therefore more headroom before it crunches up??
cheers for any input, this stuff is like voodoo to me.

Get the sensitibity (db) of the original speaker and compare it to the C Rex (102) for example. If the C Rex has a higher value it will be louder - but it will change the tone of the amp, maybe for the better maybe not.

[Keira Witherkay]

+ 1 to what jorge said , check the effeincy of of speakers , and btw emminence cannabis rex speaker is prob loudest on production market and widely used and recommended for fender type amps ,

btw don't forget the simple act of mic 'ing up your smaller tube amp, as mic ' ing up retains the tone of the amp and speaker where as a line out can be more convenient but mostly changes the tone as it skips the amp speaker of the amp , and a lot of tone is created by the speaker ,

so sometimes its worth having a small as imn 15w amp and that should with speaker mod handle everything except really loud bands and in that case , mostly there is a PA system to mic up other members so use it far easier carrying around a 20 kg 15w combo and a mic in your gig bag to mic it up if needed for loud gigs than a bigger amp cos in tube amp world size/ weight is proportional to power output ,

.so a good sounding smallish tube amp can easily be used at jazz festivals by just mic'ing up or just own 2 small amps

[pingu]

Some guys claim they can get a giggable clean tone from a 15w Princeton or Blues jr. I question if they would stay clean enough for sextet volumes or larger jazz bands. Most agree that a Twin reverb is overkill at 85-135w. Great sound, but too heavy and more power than you can use.

I have an original 22w '68 Deluxe reverb that leaves little clean headroom comping in a big band, but all the tones from that amp are the sweetest. The DR reissues have a bit more clean headroom.

I can't imagine needing more than a 40w tube amp to cover most clean jazz requirements. Seems to be a lot of love for 30w Peaveys.

I have played out a fair bit with a Blues Jnr
and I found it loud and clean enough
good sound too

[peterpanico]

It's a though quest,since 15 watts are a lot,and unless you play Mahavishnu Orchestra Jazzrock style,are more thna enough for a gig;
about clean headroom,as well,certain tube amps are "thought" that way,usually with a couple of 6V6s in the final stage,others are more rock oriented,but it is easily spotted just having a look at the specs;in my experience,I actually own,on the tubes side, a Twin Red Knobs ( Paul Rivera timeframe,100/25 watts) and an Egnater Rebel 20 head,through an 1x12" cab,with Jensen C 12K speaker,the Twin...well,useless to mention,it just "sounds".... but it's heavy big,so......the Rebel it's been a nice surprise,it has a couple of features,first a sort of Wattage brake so you can play soft and low,but having the final stage work on high current the same ( a big difference than to add a big impedance load between the final and the speaker,like do passive power brakes,ruining the tone) the other is the double shaped final stage,so you can have a couple of 6V6 as finals,or a couple of EL84s....and there's a knob that mixup them,at 12 o clock it's 50% each,turning this side or the other,it goes toward them different flavour,wich make a difference in the sound you get from it. It sounds pretty good!
Other good cleans I heard, are from the Laney VC 30 clean channel,or the VC 15 but through an external 1x12" or 2x12",I found its own 10" speaker a little "poor"....and a big surprise has been the clean channel of a Mesa Boogie Express 5/25,wich however like all Mesas,costs way too much!
Rivera little combos are good as well in clean ,and so do the little Kochs Studiotone..... remaining into the 20/25 watts realm.
Than it all depends also in what budget is involved......
I forgot.....the little Fender Princeton Reissue.... a bit expansive but......GREATTTT!! ;-)

[Frank67]

The subject is discussed here

Leightweight giggable tube amp problem solved

I think that the amp I got is just perfect for jazz, portable, loud, clean!...

[peterpanico]

This subject,like many others will be discussed over and over,simply because they recur so often,and there is not the Holy Graal.....anywhere
by the way,the second link lead to the index,not a thread,and about custom made little amps,over here there's a lot of people,doing that,some are good,some not so good,and the price it's always a big concern,and the fact that if someday you wanna sell it...well...good luck

[Frank67]

This subject,like many others will be discussed over and over,simply because they recur so often,and there is not the Holy Graal.....anywhere
by the way,the second link lead to the index,not a thread,and about custom made little amps,over here there's a lot of people,doing that,some are good,some not so good,and the price it's always a big concern,and the fact that if someday you wanna sell it...well...good luck

Sure, no disagreement. I personally never bought anything with the idea to sell it again (and haven't) ... But i know it's very common to do so and then resale value is of course a concern.

[jorgemg1984]

Hmm I've read pros like Jack Zucker here on the forum saying his Gries (35w) was good for most gigs but on say loud organ trios it was not enough (I assume the same applies to big ensembles); Joey Goldstein saying sometimes not even a Twin will put him the drummer; Vic Juris saying he need his Twin or Fuchs for even trio gigs, something like a Deluxe would not be enough.

My experience with the Blues Junior tells me the same, not enough for unmiced gigs with even say a quartet (I mean not even enough for stage sound with a jazz quartet with drums) Do my (their) bands play that loud or do yours play that low?

[peterpanico]

Sure, no disagreement. I personally never bought anything with the idea to sell it again (and haven't) ... But i know it's very common to do so and then resale value is of course a concern.

Yes ,me too but you never know....must be taken in account

[whosgarethparry]

Jorgemg1984 - how do I find the efficiency of the speaker? I'm useless at this stuff