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When I said 1.5 - 2.0 I meant the space between the 12th fret and the respective strings. I think that's about where he left it and believe me there is a LOT of buzz. I basically found the guitar unplayable for single notes untill I raised the action on the higher strings myself.
I did the test with pressing down the strings between the 2nd and 3rd fret both yesterday and earlier today. On all strings there is a tad of space between the string and the 1st fret. So the nut should be OK.
And I used to use .010 and .011 strings. I really wouldn't like to go back. Every time I have increased the gauge I've been getting much closer to a sound I like. I really hate the sound of a whimpy high E string. Actually I would be using .013 by now if I hadn't been warned against it by my tech for example.
To me a nice jazz tone (on the higher strings) requieres a heavier gauge. Allthough you can forget about doing bends with your pinky that's for sure
But yes it would seem that the buzz problem gets worse as you increase the gauge. That is also logical since the thicker the string the more space it needs to vibrate. Perhaps there are other factors too in this I dunno.
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03-19-2012 02:56 PM
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Hey don't give up yet! Didn't seems like Chris was quite finished yet? I don't think you need my advice here with Chris and Jazzbow checking in.
Here are some thoughts anyway: You definitely need some way to measure small increments. For the sake of all, I suggest we keep things metric. Can you borrow a measuring stick that will measure 0.5mm? Maybe borrow a capo, too.
You've got fret buzz all the way up the neck. Your action is low, but not ridiculous. Mine checks out at 2.0mm and just barely higher progressively from high E to low E at the 12th fret. (measured from the crown of the fret to the bottom of the string!) You definitely can bring it up on the lighter strings with out sacrificing playability. (In fact I would recommend this.) And your neck relief seems ok, but I'm not convinced that you it's been measured well yet. It still could potentially be an issue.
When capo'd or depressed behind the first fret and above the 15th or 17th, does every string clear every fret in between? Pluck each string *lightly!* in between these two fretted points: there should be NO buzzing. If there is, I suggest either you don't have the neck relief you think you do, or there might be some uneven frets.
Chris alluded to this, but I think it should be restated that in the best of worlds you make these measurements while holding the guitar in the playing position.
Finally, if you need to tweak the truss rod, always loosen it first at least an 1/8th turn before tightening. I suspect, however, you will not need to tighten your truss rod.
Don't worry about intonation yet.
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Hi again, here is an update...
I just came back from the tech. He raised the action some though not that much (on the higher strings anyway). I'd say the low E string now has a clearance of 2.8mm over the 12th fret, while the high E has around 2.2. It got rid of some of the buzz but not all.
He also checked the neck / truss rod and said it was fine.
The problem is as he said the frets. They are very worn despite the fact that I bought the guitar about 11 months ago. And besides they may not have been that well leveled to begin with.
If he was to level them he would charge me 250 pesos ($57). Since manual labour is very cheap in this country it probably sounds like very little to y'all so for comparison I would mention that I paid him 200 pesos ($46) for doing the mods which included routing the body for a humbucker, cutting the pickguard for a humbucker, changing the tuners, changing the pots, rewiring the circuit and doing a minor setup (bridge, truss rod).
Furthermore he strongly recommended against this because:
1) The frets are just too soft / bad quality therefore they would quickly end up the same as now anyway.
2) They are allready rather low so after this they would be even lower. As he said probably too low for my liking.
He also said that he would have to charge 500 pesos for REPLACING the frets alltogether. And that a set of decent frets would cost 90 pesos. So in total 590 pesos ($135).
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Well, now you have discovered something. You need to raise the action due most likely form the heavier gauge of string you use. If you like the guitar and you deem it a keeper, you might want a whole new set of frets. That will be something you have to think about. It seems to me that 11 months is too short a period of time, unless the frets were quite worn when you bought the guitar.
I have a Les Paul that went 11 years before its' first fret dressing work. I have another guitar that I'm having that work done on as we speak and it only went 6 years before it need some fret work.
You didn't answer my question though.......can you hear the fret buzzes through you amp? Those clips you put up don't contain any buzzing as far as my ears can hear.
Classicplayer
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innis1001,
I went to your topic about the Frankencaster and took a closer look at the pictures you posted of the guitar. The shot of you with the Tele on your lap
leads me to believe that the action makes the strings look like they are too low. That signals to me that that is why you are hearing the buzzing. Again,
does the buzzing come through your amplifier?
Classicplayer
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Aniss, was this guitar bought new? You must be putting in 8 hour practice sessions a day for that kind of wear!
I have seen some really (no, really) soft fret wire that can easily be shaped by hand. What is the make of guitar??
This is a picture of a brand new Squier Jazzmaster, the blue high lights on the frets are measured high points and the silvery part of the frets are level to its adjacent fret. So mass produced guitar frets are not always level!
This is a picture of frets that have had 3 passes of 400 grit sand paper, notice that there is still some blue highlight! Notice the 17th fret, on a low string action that note would buzz as it is lower than its neighbours! It took 40 passes and some spot filing to level these babies. Sometimes an over zealous fret hammering or a worn fret press at the manufacturing level can cause dips on the fret surface.
The luthier/tech/mechanic should be able to level the frets to a minimum height of .024" and even lower if that's what a customer wants. You are paying for a specific service and if you want 'all' those frets leveled until there is no fret left then that's your choice!
Don't get bummed about this though, everything is fixable and you have a fine guitar with big knobs
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@classicplayer
Hey sorry I'm a bit busy here.
But yes I can hear it clearly thru my amp. If I pick very lightly it just kills the sustain. The note dies inmediately. If I pick a bit harder it creates a rather nasty buzz noise and then dies out.
And I bought this guitar from NEW 11 months ago so it would seem that the frets are simply lousy quality. And no unfortunately I don't have time to practice a lot. And in this vacation where I had time I spent it fiddling with problems due to the mod and now this problem.Last edited by aniss1001; 03-19-2012 at 06:28 PM.
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Ah, so some feedback from your local guy.
Assuming he is correct, then frets (unfortunately) are the way to go.
Like Jazzbow, I have seen frets that are amazingly soft. I had some 12% nickel wire that I had laying around for years. I don't remember how I got it, but I could not even use on a nylon string, so I tossed it.
I know money can be tight, but that is a very nice price for a decent fret job.
If you ever do get the frets done, I suggest making sure there is not some unfortunate wire involved. I have no idea if Jescar or Dunlop wire is imported into Argentina. But as you can see even from high margin operations like Stewmac and LMI, fretwire is a low cost item.
I understand that importing it can add significantly to the cost.
OK, so I guess the whole thread has fizzled. But it was interesting in its own way.
Chris
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I think 135.00 U.S. is a good price. I would expect to pay 200.00 U.S. or more to have all new frets put in. Not a bad price should you consider to keep the guitar and bring the frets up to your standards. I'm just hoping that new frets would solved the buzzing issue. I cannot imagine a situation where new frets would not help you. Telecasters are not difficult guitars to work on or keep up to good condition. Of course it all depends on your budget and what you wish to do.
Classicplayer
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Hi again, sorry about the slow answer. A bit busy these days. All this fiddling with my guitar isn't just taking up the time I should be practicing but also the time I should be studying. So I just had to just forget about it and get some studying done.
At this time I'm not considering anything at all. I just feel like a complete moron for having spent all this time and money modding it. I'd sell it right away only there is no way of recovering even a fraction of the money I put into it so it makes no sense at all. Before the mods I could easily have sold it for like 85% of what I bought it but now I'd have to charge almost the same as a new Squier costs to make sense of it. And who would buy an apparantly worn out SX when they can get a new Squier for a bit more. Well noone. Regardless that it has a better neck pup and tuners.
Frankly I'm pissed of with the tech. I mean I asked him about this just before I did the mods. I asked him to take a good look at it and tell me whether the neck etc. was good enough to throw money into this guitar. He said it was fine. Then a 2 months later when the deed is done he tells me the opposite.
And TBO I don't have another $135 to throw at this guitar. My guitar budget has allready been exceeded. And if I did have it I would still be reluctant. I allready put around $350 into it. More just seems ridiculous. Besides what garantee do I have that he will do the job well or that there isn't some additional problem with the neck or whatnot?
Furthermore this was never meant to be like my guitar on a longer term. Just until I finish my studies, go back to Europe and start making some real money again in like 1.5 years. With my 1st paycheck I'll probably get a Hagstrom Viking, throw some nice Lollar pups on it or something and forget about this guitar. So if I don't do the fret job NOW I definately never will. It makes less sense for every day that passes.
Hmm and another thing... When you say it is a good price are you comparing it to what it would cost where you live? Or to the price of the mods I mentioned in my previous post? I mean manual labour here is MUCH cheaper than there. So if you say it would cost $200 there it should basically cost more like $60 here I think. I actually know people here who make 1800 pesos ($413) a month working 6 hours a day 5 days a week in call centers and stuff. This perhaps gives you an idea of the differences in salaries.
Ah the tech mentioned that teles (or Fenders style guitars) are more difficult to do fret jobs on. He said that had it been a Gibson or similar it would have been much easier / cheaper. Anyone knows what he was referring to here?
And to Chris: Yes sorry we sort of left the whole thing in the middle of nowhere. But with the tests we did would you say that we have ruled out that it could actually be something else entirely that causes (atleast MOST of) the fret buzz? I mean the frets don't look too good especially considering the guitar only has 11 months of use but still they don't look THAT bad to me. I think my old Japanese Squier strat had worse looking frets than this and didn't have this much fret buzz. But off course this was a long time ago so I could be remembering badly.
Either way I'll have to get the opinion of another tech and if I should decide out of desperation to do the fret job I doubt that I'll use the same tech given how I feel about him at this time.
Anyway thanks a lot to y'all for your advice on this one
Last edited by aniss1001; 03-20-2012 at 10:32 AM.
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Anyway you could upload a couple of photos to show us the fretwear?
This might help in advising you whether a fretdress could do the trick.
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I think I'd go with the fret job, but do ask around about another tech. I wonder if music stores in your area can help you with that question. 1800 Argentine pesos is about 412.00 U.S. dollars today. Call center techs in the U.S. (where I am from) probably make up to 4 times that per month for that type of work. If you remain where you are in school for the next year and half, you will miss playing a decent guitar and your sound clips show that you adapted to it all and still get a good tone out of it. That to me is worth something in itself. If you get the frets done, and the buzzing goes away you are going to be O.K. Before you do that, I think you should get another opinion from a different tech, or even a guitar instructor who has played for a long time.......they should know something about guitar problems.
Last November I found a tech in an online ad that lives about an hour's ride from me. He's been in business about 30 years and is also an electronics engineer into amp repair. I took a Les Paul to him for a fret re-crowning and polishing, new strings, cleaned the pots, polished the fingerboard, and took a few scratches out of the finish. His hourly rate is 65.00 dollars, and I ended up paying about 90.00 dollars for the work. And, he did a first-rate job, so now he's doing do thehe same work on another guitar of mine. I won't have to do this work again for quite a few years I expect, and I am keeping these guitars for a long time into the future, so the cost is well worth it to me. Good techs are hard to find and I'm lucky I saw his ad when I did.
Also, your tech found the truss rod to be O.K. and I assume he found that the rod did not rattle in it's channel. That sometimes does happen, but not often.
Classicplayer
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Originally Posted by bluefonia
This is one of the best ideas in this thread, yet!!
Classicplayer
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Originally Posted by Classicplayer
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Aniss,
Sorry that you regret the evolved situation.
As for the future, I have no advice except to note that I have a decent small assortment of archtops here, yet love my Telecaster.
Also, there is the principle of "sunk costs".
The money is already spent. It made sense based on the info and experience at the time. So no point in having an emotional attachment to particular serial-numbered peso.
I suggest (not that anyone asked):
- Write down (really, with a pen on a piece of paper, it matters) the "Lessons Learned". And in my experience I have made more mistakes, and had a longer "Lessons Learned" list, in successful projects than unsuccessful ones. Not necessarily ironic.
- Look at the best move from the current situation forward. You have a fine sounding guitar - the costs are in the past. So what makes more sense? Burning it and cursing the evil people involved (not that you are planning this at all) or looking at the best time, and place, and method to improve your situation?
Anyway, if I had a Hagstrom Viking, I'd also be very happy to have a Tele.
This is all pretty presumptuous on my part, and has nothing to do with guitar details. So probably best ignored.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 03-20-2012 at 11:26 AM.
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Your questions:
>>> Yes sorry we sort of left the whole thing in the middle of nowhere. But with the tests we did would you say that we have ruled out that it could actually be something else entirely that causes (atleast MOST of) the fret buzz?
Yes, it seems that we were zeroing in on the frets anyway. Also, our process takes about 90 seconds in-person.
>>> the guitar only has 11 months of use but still they don't look THAT bad to me.
Well, it can be a combination of unusual wear on soft frets AND some general leveling issues. We were sort of getting to that.
>>>I think my old Japanese Squier strat had worse looking frets than this and didn't have this much fret buzz.
Yes. Fret wear all by itself does not often develop into omni-present buzz, incredibly enough.
Pics will be interesting enough in a very general sense (how much wear is there?), but will not likely result in an obvious conclusion as to the overall problems.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 03-20-2012 at 11:28 AM.
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Aniss wrote
"Ah the tech mentioned that teles (or Fenders style guitars) are more difficult to do fret jobs on. He said that had it been a Gibson or similar it would have been much easier / cheaper. Anyone knows what he was referring to here?"
That is quite a generalization but he might be refering to the maple fingerboard on many Teles. The finish on the fingerboard can be a pain. If you're working with ebony or rosewood you can remove the frets and mill the fingerboard down to perfectly flat then put the frets in. Maple fingerboards have a finish on them that needs to be re-applied if you have to mill the fingerboard.
But for arguments sake, a fingerboard with binding (many Gibsons) has it's own issues with fret replacement. I would charge more to refret an instrument with a bound fingerboard than an unbound and more for a maple fingerboard than other material.
Hope this helps.
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Gramps is correct in what he said. The "nibs" or frets ends have that little piece of the binding covering them on a Gibson Les Paul and that can make
re-fretting tricky.
Classicplayer
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Aniss,
Why am I not surprised that the tech will charge you more for refretting a fenderstyle neck than a gibson-style neck
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Take your guitar to another repairman. I know you said before that this one should be the best in town, - I know, one would fear to meat the next in line if your guy really is the best - but just get a second opinion. And DON'T tell number 2 that number 1 want´s to refret.
Good luck, - and don¨t forget the photos...
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annis,
blufonia is right. Fender necks can be tricky also. I had a 1972 Thinline Tele re-fretted many years ago, and when I got it back (from one of the best repair people in Boston, Massachusetts) there were two frets where the fret puller took part of the finger board up when removing the original fret........so even the best luthiers have trouble from time to time.
Get a another repair guy to give you an opinon and don't mention anything about your first encounter......let them do the talking........even a long time player/teacher might know a lot.
Classicplayer
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>>> from one of the best repair people in Boston, Massachusetts
Gonna name names here? WG? RS? How long ago?
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PT Chris,
Clues....they were in Worcester and Boston at one time. My repairs took place
before 1980. I must say that I had them do two at the same time and I was satisfied with the acoustic that needed a fret dress and the Tele that had the frets replaced. Overall a good job, but not perfect. As I remember both together was around $135.00.....ahh....what inflation has done.
Classicplayer
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Hey I can see my thread here is still alive even if I'm not around
Sure I will try to upload som pics. But it will take me some time to borrow a cam. Don't think my webcam has the resolution to reveal any details like that.
And when the tech said that it was more difficult to refret this type of guitars I believe he mentioned lacquering, which I guess makes sense with Gramps statement "The finish on the fingerboard can be a pain".
But Chris... when you said "Fret wear all by itself does not often develop into omni-present buzz, incredibly enough" it made me wonder. What else COULD be the cause? I mean all the possible options? If it isn't the relief or the nut what could it be?
While the buzz was omni-present as you say at the extremely low action setting, that isn't the case now at this setting. It's easier to determine some specific spots. For instance there seems to be a problem around fret 7, 12 and 14 for starters. I could do some more serious testing of this or record some samples if that by any chance could be useful?!
And sorry that I lost steam on this. I really have to focus on my studies for a while now. Spent too much time on this allready. And off course I am pretty messed up about this. I know than an emotional responce isn't practical but it never is. Nevetheless here I am. Disappointed as hell.
It's not really the number ($) itself but simply the fact that I'm now stuck with this guitar for quite some time. And generally when you're on a tight budget getting the most out of your money is essential to making it work. So while money isn't important in itself they do represent freedom. In this case I lost my freedom to buy another guitar.
Also I put a lot of time and effort into this. Man the time I spent researching every detail. I have read 100s of reviews of SX teles for starters. I really did all I could to avoid EXACTLY THIS situation. Well except getting a second opinion about the state of the guitar before doing the mod. I just shouldn't have trusted that guy. I should have known. People here are generally just slobby with everything.
Anyway done is done. Still don't know whether to do the fret job. I don't know if it would solve the problem and I have no confidence that whoever I get to do it will do it well. Plus I don't have more money for this and it just seems like too much to throw at a cheap chinese crap guitar that may never be what I want it to.
BTW I did go to most of the instrument shops in town to ask around for another tech but those that could recommend one mentioned the same guy. So I dunno. I also emailed a friend in Buenos Aires asking him to find a tech there and ask how much a fret job would cost. Just for comparison.
And about the Hagstrom. Well I never saw much point in having several guitars. I get sort of attached to my guitar and don't like changing. Besides if I had 2 guitars (I once did actually) I would like one more than the other and therefore never touch the other. But still it was my idea to keep the tele as a spare guitar. To bring with me on trips and use when the other was being modded etc. But I guess I am more of a one guitar kind of guy
I wish I could say the same about women haha...
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If you can find someone you trust, who'll give you a good price for the re-fret you can just ship the neck to them. It's less expensive to ship just the neck. Save a bit more by not putting a finish on the fingerboard. It'll get dirty but will still last for years.
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PT Chris,
Correction.... Framingham and Boston.
Classicplayer
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