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One won't find better recorded archtop video's than offered by Sound Pure.
Originally Posted by ooglybong
Check these very well-recorded demos out of the 680 and 880 Pisanos...
Same player and amp in both videos. Wish he had played the same exact material, but I'm thinking that the nuances per guitar were simply leading him into somewhat different directions. Which is fine, too!
Anyway, I doubt that you'll find a better comparative of these archtops anywhere short of having both guitars in your own two hands. Some great playing here!
There's no bigger fan of the Pisano archtops than me. That's why I owned 3. The guitars are so darned ez to play, they almost play themselves...but in the end, my tone quest led me into a direction that better defined what my inner ear heard was my tone. Still, I love that Pisano model.
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10-02-2013 02:34 AM
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You mean like this one: http://www.archtop.com/ac_10L4CES.html or this one http://www.guitarsale.com/wp-content...-17-12001.jpg? Originally Posted by osvi
I'll answer it anyway. If you shop the used market, you can find the L-4CES for between $2400 and $2900, depending on finish, rated excellent plus condition. Originally Posted by targuit
Classic, warm Joe Pass style-tone...you can find the classic, warm Joe Pass-style ES-175 for between $2000 and $2400. Don't forget the Ibanez JP20 for about $1400. The ES-165 Herb Ellis with one inset neck humbucker has a thick chunky neck; some cannot bond with it. Jabber "15 archtops over four years and I still got 'em".Last edited by Jabberwocky; 10-02-2013 at 03:22 AM.
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Italian slang you say "MINCHIA!!!!!!" Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
You have had other experiences with Peerless guitars? Countess? Leela? Jazz City? Monarch? Imperial?
OsviLast edited by osvi; 10-02-2013 at 04:31 AM.
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Perhaps worth mentioning in regard to L4 and the Peerless and Eastman guitars you are referring to.
As I see it there is a fundamental difference even if construction materials are similar......spruce tops etc.
It's only my opinion but to me the Eastmans and the Peerless models you mention seem to have a strong acoustic ethic in the build. A lot of the demos I'm hearing are very acoustic sounding. Round wound strings and the acoustic sound mixed in with amp.
I actually don't know what that sound is meant to represent......well perhaps if you were a chord solo player then this would be desirable? I'm not sure. I think this sound is a more "modern" approach.
But the sound you seem to love is the L4 Gibson. I reckon if you heard it unplugged it would sound like my L5 did.
Small and nasal sounding. No big rich acoustic tone to speak of.
But when you plug it in......my my that's when you get "that" sound. The L4 is an "electric" guitar. Not a jazz acoustic guitar.
If you plugged the Eastmans or the Peerless in I would lay a bet that they won't sound like the L4. They will still sound acoustic.
So you might want to think about that difference before you buy.
Others may disagree.
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I don't need that guitar. But I want that guitar.
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The Cremona is my third Peerless. I first owned the Imperial 2 years ago. And then out of curiosity, 4 months ago I bought a Monarch. It's the finest $1200 archtop I've owned. The Imperial, and the Cremona face stiff competition in their price category. Originally Posted by osvi
Italian slang you say "MINCHIA!!!!!!"
You have had other experiences with Peerless guitars? Countess? Leela? Jazz City? Monarch? Imperial?
Osvi
Who wouldn't like to own that L4. But the question is what did it sell for? I'm sorry, but at $3k I'm still buying the 17" GE. Originally Posted by Philco
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 10-02-2013 at 11:20 AM.
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100% agree! Originally Posted by Philco
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Well, I've not owned an L4, but I've owned a ridiculous number of Eastman's, and now 4 Peerless models. Originally Posted by Philco
And in my experience their acoustic and electric tones are as different as night and day.
The Cremona is like that big burly Gospel singer, just one of many standing together as a group of collective voices. And suddenly you hear this multi layered resonant tone arise equally adept from the bass through both midrange and treble. The tone is rich, and resonant, but always consistent. 910's I've owned are fabulous archtops, but they'll underwhelm you in the lower midrange and bass...that's my audiophile ear talking. A normal human being may find no fault with them.
Plugged in, my money would bet there'd be distinct differences between an L4, any Eastman, and the Cremona. And as they're each different designs that's as it should be.
However, there are so many tone tricks available to dialing in most any archtop to ones liking. Myself, I'm a bass and midrange guy...I want a fat, warm, and resonant tone...Smokey, old school jazz guitar. I've heard that tone from L4's and now from a Cremona...but not from any of the 10 Eastmans I've owned...If I had, I'd still own an Eastman other than a flattop. That's not a knock on Eastman, that's a matter of tone preference.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 10-02-2013 at 12:35 PM.
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In contrast to your perfectly plausible and thoughtful statements in all other departments, the economics of your trading behavior keeps mystifying me. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
From my perspective, I simply cannot understand the argument that you may have been unwilling to get your hands on a used L4, which should be a whole lot easier and more lucrative to resell, if you've acquired and gotten rid of up to 70 Eastmans and Peerlesses over the past 3 years, which IMO is bound to involve an enormous loss of money.
Part of this my have to do with the fact that I'm based in Europe, but here at least I cannot picture anyone buy a Peerless or Eastman new and sell it used without incurring a substantial loss (barring perhaps if you are an incredibly patient and active advertiser, which I am not).
And no, I don't mean to be intrusive (so there's no reason to reply to this really).
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70 Peerless and Eastmans, goodness no. Perhaps something was lost in translation. Originally Posted by palindrome
I've been reluctant to sample an L4 because no matter how much I like it I'd still prefer an L5, if one availed itself at the right price. There's no Euro or Pound pricing on this side of the pond, unfortunately. I'm still new at this. There's so many other guitars I'd like to sample yet still, rather than bury myself into any one guitar. There'll be time for creating a collection of vintage keepers soon enuf. There's no rush. I'm having fun exploring.
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I've never played a Peerless so can't comment - but I've tried a couple of Eastmans that I guess you could say were 'Benedettoish' - acoustics with floaters in that modern (90's - present?) sort of style. Originally Posted by Philco
"I actually don't know what that sound is meant to represent" - I wonder that about lots of contemporary style luthier builds, particularly Benedettos (which most Eastman models seem to be influenced by). Is it supposed to be an electric or acoustic? As much as I dig the way these Benedetto style guitars look, I've never really been that excited about the way they sound amplified, particularly the ones with floaters - sort of a sterile type of tone to my ears. And I've noticed in the last 10 years, there's been a shift by Benedetto and others to having mounted pickups instead.
Lots of heavy players that use (real) Benedettos, sound to me like I'm hearing a set of flatwounds straight into a p.a. - not much character to the tone, sounds sort of 'soapy'... (don't know if anyone other than myself will make sense of that last comment lol).
Sorry for the derail - Anyway, re: L4 for $3000 when you could get a Heritage GE 17" instead - I was pondering that very situation about a month ago - I've never played a Heritage, because in Oz they're incredibly rare - how does a GE stack up against a Gibbo L5 in terms of quality? Anyone here ever got to play both? The secondhand Heritage archtop market seems ridiculously good value in terms of bang for the buck...
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Dear Mr 2bornot2bop, I would be interested in hearing your views on how the Cremona stacks up in a direct comparison with the Monarch? As far as I can tell, the main differences are carved vs. pressed, scale length, and probably most importantly, set-in PU vs. floater. Soundwise (particularly with regard to amplified sound), does this justify double the price (here in UK at least) of the Cremona relative to the Monarch? Just asking, because I have a Monarch clone, and I suspect that the main reason why I am not 100% happy soundwise is the floater, and that a conversion to a set-in PUP would do the trick... Regards, N.
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I was listening and checking out the Peerless web site, and I was kind of digging the Monarch. Sounds rather nice to me, especially at that price point. Anyone have any personal experience with playing teh Monarch?
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A couple of months ago I bought the Monarch. To my ears it is dark sounding and raw in a special and very nice way. I believe it’s due to the pressed wood and at expense of some acoustic qualities. But I preferred the monarch over my Gibson 175, which I afterwards sold. Now I ordered a carved from a luthier, which will take some months to build. If this will be both nice acoustic and dark and everything in one dream, I will sell the Monarch. Otherwise I will keep it for what it does so exceptional.
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astute observations all around...for a carved made in america, cost-quality ratio, ridiculously low resell value, the GE is tough to beat. Patrick owns both several L5's and a crazy number of Heritage archtops, including GE's...he's answered your question many times...those threads can be located via the search box. Originally Posted by 3625
Hey Neuroscan! You're spot on with the spec differences. Acoustically the Cremona has greater clarity and precision than my Monarch. Electrically, the Cremona's humbucker adds a seriously funky growl...that's a pure positive thing. I've only heard that growl once in any other humbucker, and it was from a vintage Japanese L5 knockoff featuring stock Super 70's...that's one guitar I should not have sold....but when you're new you've no idea what characteristics of an archtop are going to be challenging to duplicate in another down the line. The Cremona is a modern day vintage old school jazz tone. Someone designed this guitar right. I've bought these 2 Cremona's used, so in that way it was a 2 for 1 acquisition. But I'd not have acquired the 2nd, in a 16" arriving in 48 hours, if the 17" hadn't impressed me as it has...it's my new keeper, replacing the Monarch I bought just 3 months ago. Yes, the tone of the Cremona more than justifies its price. I can't imagine anyone being disappointed in a Cremona's performance, either acoustically or electrically. The Cremona has the finest humbucking tone I've heard yet. I've been seeking tone, performance, not a label on a headstock. To my surprise, Peerless got me there. But I'd never have known had I not rolled the dice on an archtop I had to buy without playing it beforehand. Which btw, I've done every time I've bought any archtop. Sooner or later one has to fish or cut bait. Originally Posted by neuroscan
The Monarch is one of the finest sub $1500 archtop's I know of. I'd not be selling my Monarch had I not happened upon a pair of used Cremona's, which are virtually impossible to find use...folks must be keeping their Cremona's, as there are none on the used market. The action on my Monarch is the 2nd best I've had yet. It's set up so well the guitar almost plays itself. Originally Posted by targuit
I agree completely, with the stock floater the Monarch is on the darker side. Personally, I prefer a dark over a bright tone. The Peerless video is spot on, and I'm never much a fan of youtube videos because tone wise they can be misleading...this one is spot on, as my Monarch sounds exactly like this: Originally Posted by Munk
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 10-03-2013 at 02:34 PM.
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Not to ruffle anyone's feathers here, but if there wasn't a bit of snobbery going on each of these archtops would be better known. Each is very accessible, and yet there's countless questions on them. Sure, I had questions to, which prompted me to buy them rather than have a closed mind and blow them off based upon their name, or where they're made or (fill in the blank).
Coming from audio 35 years prior to buying my first archtop just 3 years ago, audiophiles know that snobbery, i.e., buying a name rather than a performance. I didn't come to acquiring archtops with such baggage. I have a very open mind, and I will try anything at least once. I'm not fingerpointing, but we've all seen the snobbery of which I'm talking about...nuff said...end rant.
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3625 wrote:
"I actually don't know what that sound is meant to represent" - I wonder that about lots of contemporary style luthier builds, particularly Benedettos (which most Eastman models seem to be influenced by). Is it supposed to be an electric or acoustic? As much as I dig the way these Benedetto style guitars look, I've never really been that excited about the way they sound amplified, particularly the ones with floaters - sort of a sterile type of tone to my ears. And I've noticed in the last 10 years, there's been a shift by Benedetto and others to having mounted pickups instead.
Lots of heavy players that use (real) Benedettos, sound to me like I'm hearing a set of flatwounds straight into a p.a. - not much character to the tone, sounds sort of 'soapy'... (don't know if anyone other than myself will make sense of that last comment lol).
Sorry for the derail - Anyway, re: L4 for $3000 when you could get a Heritage GE 17" instead - I was pondering that very situation about a month ago - I've never played a Heritage, because in Oz they're incredibly rare - how does a GE stack up against a Gibbo L5 in terms of quality? Anyone here ever got to play both? The secondhand Heritage archtop market seems ridiculously good value in terms of bang for the buck...[/QUOTE]
I own a 1995 L4 and a 1996 Heritage GE with floating PU (rewound by K. Armstrong). Although these have a similar feel, they sound as different as night and day. From your text, it sounds as if you would greatly prefer the L4. The L4 is my fattest and warmest guitar. I put in a P90 neck PU and I think it now sounds a lot like Peter Bernstein's Zeidler. The GE exhibits more of the "soapy"(??) acoustic tone you dont seem to favor. The GE needs an amp with good bass and midrange in order not to sound plinky. Nonetheless, I like both of these.
AndyLast edited by maggles55; 10-03-2013 at 05:02 PM.
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Good move with the KA rewound, but I didn't find Heritage #3 in one of my GE's performed badly. The black GE in my avatar had a rewound KA. Each of the 4 GE's I've owned had unique acoustic and electric signatures...which seemed appropriate to me, for no two archtops are exactly alike? Originally Posted by maggles55
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I like this clip and I like the sound. For a mid to low priced guitar what more could you want?
The Monarch was my first Jazz guitar. That was almost 3 years ago now. I absolutely didn't get on with it from the moment I picked it up. I sold it within a month.
The fault was with me really. I had a sound in my head and none of my next 3 guitars were capable of getting it.
My journey had just begun so to speak.
I'm much closer to the sound I want now but that involved a couple of Amplifiers, many pedals and different string types and gauges plus a complete change of picking technique. I think if I had the Monarch now I would get a much better sound out of it.
One thing about that clip (you know I'm gonna say it).That guy is using the Benson technique. Look at the angle of his pick.
Not to take anything away from the guitar but the pick angle is a BIG part of that sound. Listen to the part where he plays the solo unaccompanied. Hear the slight scrape on the bass strings? Here the pop on the treble strings?
If that player turned his pick to a more "front on" position you would fall over backwards at the tone difference. It would be equivalent to turning the bass control to "off" on your stereo.
Then read about the 2 valve preamps he is going through before he hits his RME interface (RME interfaces have great converters).
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"Hi, thanks for your comment. I used a tube guitar preamp (an old Hughes&Kettner unit) directly into another tube preamp from TLA Audio, then into the RME Multiface into Cubase. When playing with an amp i use my trusty old Fender Silverface Vibrolux Reverb from the 70s."
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My point is if you bought a Monarch and plugged it into your current amp using your current technique with you big fat stubby pick........well you may not get the sound he has.
But as 2bornot2bop points out, Youtube clips can be misleading. There is more to the sound than meets the eye, so to speak.
Having said all that I would personally love to try a Cremona.
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Hey Andy, thanks for the reply - I've actually got a 90's L4 CES atm, which you're totally right about - I do like that fat warm tone it's got. Re: 'soapy' lol, what I was trying to describe was a sound I hear with more 'modern' carved tops with floaters - it's seems there's a particular sound they have which is inherent to the design. I find this interesting, in that D'Angelico type 'traditional' carved tops with floaters, to my ears sound very different. I've played a couple of Guild Artist Awards, and seen some youtube demo's of GE's and they both sound fantastic, with lots of that 'old school' character to the tone - you can get a 50's American tone out of them if that's what you want - whereas anyone I've seen playing Benedetto's has a totally different sound again - I don't particularly get into it, but plenty of great players obviously do, so there you have it... Originally Posted by maggles55
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Here is a clip with the same player playing a much more expensive hand made guitar.
What do you prefer? The hand made Sonntag J17X guitar or the Korean Monarch?
This is recorded with 2 microphones.....so that kind of puts a spanner in the works for the comparison.
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Sonntag vs. Peerless: to be honest, I prefer the Peerless - but because the tone is more 'traditional' in character which is my preference - the soloing on the Peerless had a sort of Jim Hall 80's tone to it - thicker. That said, I could hear the 'quality' difference in tone between the two - especially with the comping - cheaper asian guitars can sound a bit bright and harsh, whereas all those high end woods in the Sonntag round the edge off the tone more - in a good way.
So to me there's two things I'm comparing - 1/ quality of wood/workmanship and 2/ the inherent sound of the design - what sound the guitar maker is going for, because even though I preferred the more traditional sound of the Peerless, the Sonntag was obviously made to have a totally different tonal character - more 'modern'.
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Exactly me feelings and reaction. I have the same 50's preference so the Peerless does it for me on the single notes. Originally Posted by 3625
But the comping goes to the Sonntag. And I have no doubt the Sonntag feels a whole lot better to play.
But what a great time we live in for Jazz guitar choices!
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Philco. I don't use a pick and don't own a pedal. Other than a tube amp i own zero guitar accessories. Not one. Originally Posted by Philco
I reiterate that my Monarch plugged into a boutique twin with an Alniinco and a Ceramic sounds identical to that youtube. What one is hearing is the signature tone of the Monarch as I know it to be. After listening to decades of audio gear I've come to trust my ears.
I'm no purist, but I don't believe in muddying up the signal chain in the pursuit of tone. Call me old school.
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What's tone? Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I'm no purist, but I don't believe in muddying up the signal chain in the pursuit of tone. Call me old school.
To be honest I wish I still had the Monarch. But that aint the first mistake I've made!
To me.....as stated before......it's about valve amps, compression and distortion. That's the sound of the 50's bebop guitar players that appeals to me. There is certainly nothing purist about that sound. Nothing at all. Laminate guitars into cranked amps that are sagging and pumping some poor speaker. Then taken by an engineer and pushed through a Neve desk with some more eq and compression added.
And I'm sure that there is some whiskey and cocaine in the mix.
On the other hand you've got hand made arch tops played by virtuosos in art galleries that bore the pants off me.
What can I say? I'm a working class lad......that high class stuff goes right over my head.
Interesting thing about this discussion that 3625 pin pointed is the 2 differing styles of sound. Almost 2 different schools I guess.
The early bop sound or the modern more acoustic sound.
The OP should decide what path to follow before he pulls the trigger.
Given that equation, it can then follow that buying an instrumented handcrafted by a talented luthier with the best materials the earth has to offer may....sound like doggy doo to some people and of course the opposite applies.
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