Natural Acoustic Archtop Sound - How to Amplify?

[Greentone]

I played Herb Ellis' ES-175 once. It was a single P90, 1953 model. Now, it was on the light end of the spectrum, in terms of weight. Ellis had flatwound strings on it, IIRC--about .12 or .13-.52 gauge, I would estimate. (I didn't want to waste dinner time with him with annoying questions about strings and things.)

The point is, his guitar sounded _surprisingly_ good acoustically--for a laminated body guitar. Electrically, of course, it was unbeatable. At that point, I already owned a vintage ES-175 because of Mr. Ellis and Jim Hall.

Here's the deal--you mic an archtop guitar like that to pull the rhythm performance out of it for accompanying someone like Ms. Krall, then roll up the volume for your solos. (What a gig. I would love to perform behind someone like Krall. As it is, I always jump when called to accompany jazz singers who really know their way around repertoire. "I'll be right there.")

[jzjazz]

Nothing recorded, unfortunately. But I definitely think this is a feasible solution for that. For example, keep the piezo volume low, and roll back a bit on the humbucker volume when you're going into the 4-to-the-bar comping. The magnetic pickup will still fill in the low end and the mids, while the piezo will get you the snare-ish attack on those chords. In terms of EQ, I scoop the mids out completely (i.e. as much as I can) from the piezo. The reason for this is that I only use it blended. I don't want to hear piezo over the sound of the humbucker. By scooping the mids I let the piezo occupy the frequency range not taken by the humbucker. I hate the piezo *quack* as much as anyone else does.

Makes complete sense!

I will add one other point. The rig is not totally straightforward. I really don't think a piezo will sound good coming out of a Princeton or a Deluxe. Some people seem to like it, but I've never been a fan. So your real options are to pack a two channel solid state amp (which is what I've been doing) or plug the piezo into the sound system via a preamp with EQ. I realize this may be a bit more complicated that what you were hoping to do.

I'm expecting that it won't sound too good on a tube amp. But in terms of easy-to-go solution I should give the Yamaha AEX1500 another try (this was a couple years back when I played it and I heard differently back then) - I spoke to my friend who owned it and he told me that this is probably the ideal solution for me. And it has just one cable coming out of the guitar - you blend it on the guitars' panel:

[Woody Sound]

Also, an "acoustic" amp will reproduce the crisp, full-range sound.

[jzjazz]

Alright,

thanks to all of you, that was a big help. I'm still not sure what I want, but there are two ways I'll try:

1. Something with both piezo and regular pickup, there is a Yamaha AEX1500 not far from me so I'll give it a go. This might be what I'm looking for, though I'm not sure this will be "a dream coming true" - this will always be something in between. The jazz tone of that yamaha isn't the best I've heard (hell, I'm playing a 175!), the piezo is always only a substitute of a real flattop. But maybe the combination is more than I expect.

2. Lean towards a vintage sound instead of chasing that flattop sound I'll never get from an archtop. This is stylish and I won't have acoustic guitarists coming to me during gig breaks and saying that their Cort for 200$ sounds better But really - that's a different kind of sound, still acoustic but different. There are some plug-and-play solutions available like the Guild A150, but they don't convince me - I'll probably look for an old non-cutaway acoustic archtop (or one with a floating pickup) and separately but a rhythm chief. In a minute I'll start a new thread asking which affordable and popular old archtop to get

Thanks again!

[miken]

Just a thought. I bought an Eastman AR371 to try to get an ES175 sound and what I got was a very acoustic tone. At first I was disappointed. But, that has become one of the things that I love about it. Particularly on swing tunes and comping. It even gets a bit of a gypsy sound sometimes. There is a video on you tube with Anthony Wilson and john Pisano playing 'Good Bait'. Never mind the fact that it's those two. (Holy smokes, can they play!). And, that they're playing higher end Eastman's. But, the tone in that video is a good representation of what I'm talking about.

[jzjazz]

So I played a Yamaha AEX1500 yesterday and didn't like it The guitar was visually in very bad quality - it had laquer cracks all around (only the back of the guitar was so-so, but top and sides were all over cracks - first time I saw something like this. Nonetheless I don't think it affected the sound - the guitar was set up properly and played well.

The floating pickup was fine, very transparent and didn't show any "character" or something I'd say "wow" to. It was alright and the guitar had a nice neck, but I wouldn't play it when having also a 175. The piezo made it only worse I'm affraid - tried different things, mids on piezo out etc. Nothing came beyond "OK, that sounds fine" and I've spend half and hour trying.

So I'm not saying that the combination of both systems is wrong (omphalopsychos' examples show that it can work), but the yamaha isn't it. Rather a good sounding guitar with magnetic pickup and then add a good piezo.

[omphalopsychos]

Sorry to hear that. I've never played the AEX1500 but it sounds like she isn't the one. Either way, it sounds like you have a more interesting quest now: searching for a vintage archtop to slap a pickup on. I'm on a similar quest at the moment, and it looks like we're thinking similarly. Best of luck!

[jorgemg1984]

The TC Body Rez pedal can make wonders with a piezo, worth checking out.

[goldenwave77]

Rich Severson had an interesting tip to make "set-in" pickup guitars sound more responsive, i.e. more toward the acoustic, floating p/u world.

He said to try using surgical tubing to screw "through" when re-attaching the p/u mounting screws. In essence, he is taking a mounted p/u guitar and kind of turning it into a floater. (The re-attached p/u will be lifted off the soundboard surface.) Experiment with the height.

He said he noticed the biggest difference with the rear p/u as this is where most of the soundboard vibration occurred (or was dampened).

Completely reversible, non-invasive, and inexpensive.

He has a YT video on it, on his site.

[John A.]

Not sure if the subject is clear - I'm playing a 175 through a Princeton right now and I'm completely happy with the sound when it comes to my instrumental band (with tenor sax, db and drums).

But I'm playing pretty often with vocals and also pretty often - without drums (trio with double bass and voc) and the 175 isn't working perfectly in such aplications. It does fine, but we're playing a lof of swing tunes where the guitar takes most of the rhythm job. So what I'd like is to have a second guitar for such aplications which gives a lot of acoustic attack and sound WHEN AMPLIFIED. I know I could take a guitar which is loud acoustically and blend both - amplified and acoustic, but this is too much trouble. These are usually very small venues where we put only the vocal on speakers - guitar and bas are fine from their amps.

To make it even more clear, I'm looking for a sound like this:

(Anthony's Eastman Pisano is miced, it doesn't sound like that amplified-only, I've had one)

Any chance to achieve that without using a mic a acoustically-loud archtop?

I've had a D'Aspiranta/Peerless NY and two Eastmans (803 and Pisano) in the past and these were the closest to this feel. The floating pickup might be an important factor. But this still wasn't it. Maybe something completely different? A rhythm chief? Maybe you know of something that I don't know of

PS. I played two archtops with a piezo (Martin Taylor Yamaha and something else) and I didn't like it at all. Piezo sounds like piezo to me, not like an acoustic instrument

I just picked up a Godin Kingpin. With roundwounds, it's surprisingly loud unplugged (significantly more than other laminated top guitars I've played), and the tone itself is convincingly acoustic -- it basically sounds like a carved top acoustic guitar, but quieter (and with fewer feeback problems amped). In the vocalist setting you're describing, I think you could get away with rhythm/comping by keeping the volume down on the guitar and letting the acoustic and amped tones blend in the air (the old Jim Hall trick). It's got a P-90, which has a slight acoustic effect at some vol/tone settings (more than a humbucker, less than Rhythm Chief). If you're looking for a second guitar, it's a pretty low-risk/cost experiment (these things are stupid cheap for how good they sound, especially used).


John

[MikeTT]

From my experiments and IMO: if you add a piezo or a mic to the magnetic pickup, you need separate channels and good mixing options, volume balance of both pickups, but also frequency response (EQ).
You can get very nice results with such a setup, but it can also be a hassle because of the additional gear...

[campusfive]

I'll throw out a couple ideas:

1) Anthony Wilson, is playing his guitar basically acoustically, with just a little amp help. So that means he's playing differently - he's digging in a bit more than one might if you were depending on the amp to "do all the work". So, reducing your volume so you have to play the guitar with a bit more force will bring out more of the acoustic quality. Now, I don't mean you have to beat up the guitar, but just dig in a bit more. But of course, he still as some help from the mic too.

2) The guitar has to do some of the acoustic work. Depending on the era of 175 you have, sometimes they're more acoustic than others. If you're looking for a guitar that's a bit more acoustically viable without spending 1940's L-5 money, try a Loar. Since you don't dig low end guitars, try one of the LH-600 or 700, or the LH-650 if you want a cutaway. I'd add/replace the pickup with something like a reissue DeArmond. Perhaps consider playing with roundwounds if you're on flats now, and perhaps consider have the action just slightly higher (nothing crazy, just a bit more to drive the top). If you took a guitar like that, and held back on the volume knob so you have to dig in a bit more, you'd get some of that vibe.

3) I dig the acoustic mic (see the DPA4099 thread), and will play with both a DPA and a DeArmond guitar mic on the same guitar at the same time, BUT I don't blend them. I have a footswitch to mute the microphone - when I switch to electric, I mute the acoustic, and roll up the electric volume knob. A) I'm not looking for a "blended" sound - I want to be able to play electric solos and riffs without compromising the "acoustic" quality of swing rhythm guitar, so I keep them separate. B) I know the sound guy doesn't want to be surprised that I have DOUBLE the output all of a sudden. But I occasionally miss my footswitch and leave the mic on by mistake, so it's not impossible, but I know they freak out a bit when it happens.

[swingtoneman]

I have an acoustic 'Loar' archtop and I want to to install a pickup or contact mic get the best reproduction of the acoustic sound. What pickups have you tried and are pleased with the results to replicate the guitar's acoustic properties?

On the other hand what floating pickup do you rate as the best pickup you have tried to give a good electric 'jazzy' sound?

[christianm77]

This comes up a lot and it’s still a quandary. I play a Loar too. LH600, love it!

To me it’s a compromise between fidelity and practicality (basically feedback rejection and ease of use.) And what sort of gigs you do.

For best fidelity - clip on mic. DPA cello mount I think would be the rolls Royce option, but there are cheaper. Situations with drums can get a bit problematic where you don’t have a soundman (or woman)

Piezos. Never found an option that I truly like. K&K Definity - used this for a while but ultimately found it a bit lacking in body and tone.

Krivo pickups - super simple to use, they just blue tack on. I use the Djangobucker. Although a magnetic pickup I find these pickups are good for giving a bit more acoustic air to the sound. It doesn’t sound bad at all. Really good through an AER compact 60.

DEFINITELY get a volume pedal for the piezo or krivo options.

On an archtop it’s a bit out of position which results in low output and some issues with string balance. I may try the krivo archtop model.

If you are a patient and coordinated person you might want to explore a mix of magnetic and piezo

Hope that’s some help. I mean a soundman with a well placed mic can get a great sound.

Just make sure you have a drummer who’s open to not playing cymbals all the time lol.

Anyway re: live sound engineers. Basically that’s really the discussion here lol.

[omphalopsychos]

Christian, did you use a preamp for the K&K Definity? Having an EQ makes a big difference.

My response depends on the style of music you will be playing. The K&K sounds pretty good for relatively delicate and even playing. For swing rhythm, it's far too compressed and sounds unrealistic.

The best solution for reproducing acoustic sound is a lavalier mic.

For a floating pickup, check out DeArmond. The RC 1000 works great with acoustic strings and is not as expensive as the 1100. The reissues from Guild are pretty good too, but the originals have more character.

[christianm77]

I tried three preamps for the K&K.

The little cheap one whatever it's called (which I like best, but broke and was a pain to use the phase switch and tone controls) the K&K Definity Pro, which sounded very trebly and I could never get a good sound out of, and an LR Baggs Para DI, which was acceptable.

For the money I splashed out, I'd like better than acceptable. I can plug a cheap Nylon string with cheap Fishman undersaddle piezo straight into an AER with flat settings and get a sound I can gig with. I shouldn't need to EQ heavily if it's a workable solution.

If anyone wants a K&K Pro preamp let me know!

[christianm77]

That said - I do cut the treble with the Djangobucker.

The best solution for amplifying an acoustic archtop is a lavelier microphone, unless you are me, apparently. I've been banned from using them by my bandmates due to the feedback problems lol.

Bear in mind I was gigging 200 shows a year in a variety of venues from concert halls to noisy bars playing swing guitar (rhythm & lead), and in a band without a regular sound engineer.

Others swear by them, they must have better sound on their gigs.... See my remarks about sound engineers and drummers. I'm just going to leave it at that.

[rio]

Kent Armstrong floating PAF (12 pole pieces) is the best floater around imo.


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[nopedals]

You can do both kinds of amplification at once:



Not really practical for a show; too many wires (although my Bud would be an ideal amp for that application). I just recorded both at the same time just for fun, and listened carefully to each channel. I think I preferred the sound of the dearmond; more compressed, less string noise, but still a very acoustic sound. The dearmond is also less prone to feedback, and is easier to control in the hubbub of playing loud with other people. I should note that the levalier mike (AT35) and the guitar interface (alesis io2) I used are both budget items, so higher end equipment would make a difference.

Both are great in one respect; I can take them off for everyday playing.

IME piezos, even with a preamp, are a poor choice. Just my experience, and I have not tried every brand. One experience comes to mind. A national artist did a clinic at a local guitar store, pitching Taylor guitars. I won't name him, but he is someone you would respect for his experience and skill. One of the guitars had a piezo system that he was very enthusiastic about, and for half the clinic he played guitars with that piezo system, the other half acoustically into the house mike. The piezo sounded miserable.

[rabbit]

Have not gotten around to this yet, but I will.

This video demo doesn't show it being used with an archtop.

Not expensive; has .140" daylight for top thickness.

[don_oz]

I had a guild Rhythm Chief 1000 re-issue from thomann on my LH-300 for a while, it was great, but then I decided to contact Pete Biltoft and get this bad boy. In the words of McDonald's "I'm lovin' it"

[Geert]

I've used both a K&K archtop transducer and various floating pickups on my Loar.
The K&K sounded good, but I never really got around using it with a proper (acoustic) amp.
I quickly switched to a floating pickup to get a more 'electric' sound.
I tried the Benedetto S6 (didn't like it very much, a bit of a crossover between an acoustic sound and an electric sound)
Next was the Kent armstrong single coil floater (I love this pickup allthough I thought it was a bit thin in the higher registers) I therefore switched to the KA floating humbucker ( a bit fatter than the single coil, but I liked the single coil better for comping.) I use flatwounds

Hope this helps,

G

[campusfive]

I'm sure somebody is going to think I'm beating a dead horse, but....

I've never heard a contact transducer or magnetic pick up do any justice to the acoustic tone of an archtop guitar. A magnetic pickup might sound "good", but it's an electric guitar tone. And a contact transducer such as a K&K just sounds more or less like a piezo-equipped flattop and doesn't do anything to retain the "archtop" character of the guitar.

I'm a proponent of using a lavalier mic to amplify the acoustic sound of an archtop. There's a bunch of information about how I do it here: Swing Guitar Blog — Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five featuring Hilary Alexander

The main thing is to set up the stage geometry so that any monitor is not blowing into the body of the guitar or the top of the guitar (either making the body of the guitar resonate, or blowing into the top and reflecting right into the mic), and having a "mute switch" pedal so you can turn the mic off when needed. I've been using this rig for the last 4 years (well over 100 gigs, from solo gigs to a full 15-piece big band) and its the only way to get the acoustic sound of the archtop amplified while retaining it's essential "acoustic" character.

As for a floating pickup, you're asking for a "jazzy sound", so you might want to be a bit more specific. A floating Kent Armstrong is going to get you a very different sound than an old DeArmond, and both would be considered "jazzy" by somebody. If you're looking for something era-appropriate to match the vibe of a Loar, I'd think a DeArmond 1000 or 1100 reissue would fit the bill, and a real DeArmond FHC might be even better.

[Chazmo]

The whole acoustic archtop amplification thing has been a conundrum for me for years. A floater is cool, but they just don't work for the acoustic sound, regardless of the type of strings used or whether the pickup has adjustable pole pieces.

Other solutions I have tried:

Mics in front of the guitar sound great, but trying to stay stationary so the mic consistently picks up the guitar in a live situation is tough. Think about playing three sets without moving around.

DeArmond Guitar mics work better than most magnetic pickups with bronze or monel strings. They sound good and retain some acoustic tone, but they're still electric when you come right down to it.

K&K Pure Archtop and Definity transducers sound thin and crappy even with a K&K preamp. You can wire them to a stereo jack with a floater, but then you're back to electric guitar sound aren't you? See above.

Lavalier mics are feedback monsters. If you, and your bandmates, have the patience and the time to fart around with positioning everything "just so," that's cool. At most of my gigs, I have to set up and go.

The iRig Stage will clip on to the F-hole of my Godin 5th Avenue because the top is so thin. It will not fit onto my '51 Epi Zenith, which has a more typical top thickness. The iRig sounds pretty good, but it also feeds back some, though not as bad as my experience with a lavalier. The provided preamp has a kill button you can hit when it starts to feedback, but the one time I used it at a restaurant gig (the type of venue I'm likely to use an acoustic over an electric), everyone in the joint shot me a nasty look in the second it took to get to the button. No venue owner would ask me back if I disturb their patrons' peaceful and tranquil dining experience with a howling guitar.

Acoustic amplification for flattops has been worked out for at least a couple of decades. By "worked out" I mean plug and play, sounding good, and no feedback. I sincerely wish someone could develop the same sort of thing for archtops. I always jump on these posts when I see them in the forum, hoping to see anything new. I posted one time asking if anyone had used an AKG C411 miniature vibration pickup, but I got zero responses.

[docsteve]

I have had a Fishman bridge with integrated pickup for ages. Played it straight into a Marshall acoustic amp. Everybody loved the sound I was getting. This was in a swing trio with piano and bass, occasionally a singer or horn would sit in.

I put a floater on it for some electric sounds, and it didn‘t work out for me. I returned to the Fishman every time.


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