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What kind/make/model of floating pickup might accentuate the acoustic sound of an archtop? I know that a contact/piezo pickup or microphone are better for that, but I am just wondering is there are any floaters that are known to be more full-range with the crisp highs.
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01-16-2020 11:49 AM
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Been talking with Jason at Krivo again recently, he said his "Micro manouche" would be a good choice for using bronze strings and getting a more "acoustic" sound. I'm considering one for my old Kay...
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PS - Ideally, to work with bronze/brass strings, but not a deal breaker if it can't.
Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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This one sounds promising too.
Lace Ultra Slim Acoustic Sensor Black | Django Books | Reverb
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If some has used one of these above on an archtop I would like to have your feedback of the sound. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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I think a good ol’ DeArmond 1100 can usually bring out the acoustic qualities in a guitar very well. That may not be quite what you’re thinking though.
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To my ear contact/piezo pickups rarely sound good and most sound awful. There are occasional exceptions, but in those cases the guitar was designed hand-in-hand with the pickup and preamp (e.g., Rick Turner's Renaissance guitars). Buscarino's "implant" pickup in his nylon string guitars often seem to sound pretty good. The right amp is crucial. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
Kent Armstrong's PAF-0 floating 12 pole pickup is adjustable for use with acoustic strings and is very wide range with strong high end. Benedetto's pickups were designed to be acoustic-ish rather than electric-ish. Pair them with a very low capacitance cable like George L's (16 pF/foot) to avoid dropping the resonant peak of the pickup.
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I have been using a reissue DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1000 (with the red top, no pole pieces) on my Godin 5th Avenue acoustic with 80/20 bronze strings. The balance is good and it sounds more acoustic than most magnetric pickups, especially at lower volume, through an acoustic amp. Mostly I run it through a Polytone Minibrute II at home or a Henriksen Bud at gigs.
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semi serious thought exercise:
I have a gretsch g400 I dearly love, and a USA Kent Armstrong floater installed. Neat. Happy.
But sometimes, I like to run it through my electric amps because I'm a terrible person who likes to do horrible things. And it's glorious.
So I got to wondering: what if I were to install a second pickup to get an " acoustic" sound and run that one way, while running the floater into an amp for electric tones, and possibly do both at the same time?
On a scale from one to me, how dumb is this? Any tips, tricks or pitfalls involved?
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So like a piezo?
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Problem is how you split them. You would need some sort of utility box to accept a stereo jack from your guitar and split it out to separate feeds. Once split you can run the signal chains however you want. You could also use a TRS to separate 1/4" cable feeds but they're pretty clunky.
As for an Armstrong floater, it's probably one of the best for running into an acoustic set up but I think most of us treat it like the humbucker it is and run it into amps designed for electric guitar.
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possibly? Something under the bridge, or a sound board transducer or something? Hopefully not a mic or contact mic (for ease of use, mostly), but I'm listening. Originally Posted by arielcee
i assumed that is be running two lines out of the guitar, which would negate the need to split the signal. The g400 has the input jack on the lower rim, so running a second pickup through where the strap pin currently resides shouldn't be an issue. Originally Posted by Spook410
And I'm pretty happy with the Armstrong. It does pretty acoustic things fairly well. But I do things more akin to this with it, as well:
I think it would be cool do do heavily distorted or effected things one way while still having the acoustic thing going, too. Or I could track clean and acoustic at the same time, which would be neat. There at possibilities here, both live and in the studio.
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I have a G400 too!
I tried having magnetic pickup and a piezo wired up. I had a toggle switch under the pickguard to toggle between the two.
It didn't work - I think you'd need separate outputs.
What sounds good for the magnetic pickup sounds horrible for the piezo and vice versa.
No amount of tweaking would result in a useable sound with the piezo.
My G400 is used for big band duties a lot, generally I want more of an acoustic sound for that style. That's why I tried the piezo thing.
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But I kinda think it just needs someone as dumb as me to make the financial and emotional commitment to fail on such a grandiose level. I could be wrong, though.
But consider:
I have a separate acoustic chain with parametric eq, aura system etc going into a pa.
I won't have to split the signal if I just run two separate signals, so they will be fully independent; they won't share amps or processing.
Im already running DR zebra strings, which are an electric/acoustic compromise that sound pretty OK ( though they inexplicably stain your fingertips)
I'm already doing all that anyway, so the only difference here would be the extra pickup, and instead of picking which chain to play through, i could do both. Or either. I havent figured that part out, nor what the onboard options would look like.
And congratulations on being the only other person on earth in the coolest guitar ever club. Which pickups have you tried with it? Any recordings?
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Maybe consider K&K's Defnity system?
Definity System | K&K Sound
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I've not had unqualified success using the K&K live with my arch top (a Loar LH600) but it's OK with my Maccaferrri. Mostly I find I have to heavily EQ the sound on the Loar.
I used to use the K&K pickup in combination with a Shadow Atila Zoller pickup and a stereo jack output with a splitting cable. I never tried the two amps thing - I didn't have two amps at that point, but I can't see why it wouldn't work. Might need to be aware of phasing but an acoustic preamp with a phase switch like the LR Baggs Para DI may sort that out?
In the end I stopped using it because it was more trouble than it was worth. This is what it sounded like:
I think that sounds a lot better than I remember it lol. Actually that might mostly be the K&K.
What might be worth looking at is the ToneDexter with the K&K. This guy seems to get a really nice sound:
(Obviously there's a difference between what sounds good in the studio and what works out live.) The idea of it seems almost too good to be true, and as I play a variety of acoustic instruments I am seriously considering saving up for one of these...
I'm sure Jonathon Stout will be on here in presently to extoll the virtues of a lavelier mic, a solution I've never found terribly practical, but he gets a great sound.
Another option that I would be interested in hearing about is the use of a small contact mic such as the AKG C411L. I tried one on my Nylon String the other day and it sounded good and not too feedback.
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Oh one last thing. I now use the K&K on my Django box with a cheap as chips ART Tube preamp I had lying around and an EQ pedal and it sounds a whole lot better.
I haven't tried this on the Loar, and if I do and like it I will make a recording.
The ART also has a phase switch (hooray!) but no tweakable EQ (boo) or notch (double boo.) Maybe I should write to them as I would buy such a thing in a heartbeat and I'm sure there would be others.
It does the Junior Barnyard/Octal Amp thing a little bit with an electric too, at least to my ears....
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I wasn't super impressed with their clips or their pricing. But there doesn't seem to be many options for this kinda thing, so I may have to look closer at it. Originally Posted by Ray175
first off, your sound and playing was great. And lucky for me, my trusty Platinum pro eq has plenty of eq and phase switching and a notch filter. I might not have considered this without such a tool at my disposal. Originally Posted by christianm77
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This is what Jonathan Stout recommends and uses (which I bought recently as well):
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Have a K&K Definity as well as a K&K archtop. Not real happy with either even with lots of EQ. Haven't tried them with a ToneDexter yet but have one and will one of these days. It works very well on a K&K equipped flat top.
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The Tonedexter looks interesting. Does it work with magnetic pickups, or only piezos? I can't tell from a quick look at the website.
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I'd be reticent to use a mic because it's expensive, a hassle, and higher volumes and being attached to a distorted guitar feeding back can't be a great idea. But I don't doubt it's the best sounding option. In just not the guy to set it up every single time I take the guitar out of the case.
As for the tone Dexter, well... I have a fishman aura on the way. Six of one, maybe. Not that it has images for archtops, but it claims to work with magnetic pickups as well. Which the tonedexter doesn't and I have a fair amount of. So I'll report back on that, even if it isn't exactly what we're talking about here.
As for using copious eq to make a salvageable sound, I already have an lr baggs lyric
a regular old k&k sounds pretty nice with my baritone, and the aura should fluff it up some. Any thoughts on the schatten soundboard pickup, maybe?
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Does not work well with magnetic pickups. Not even a Sunrise pickup. Needs the full spectrum you get for a piezo or K&K. Interesting how good a piezo equipped flat top sounds with this thing. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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My recommendation is to throw away the definity set ups and mount K&K Big Twins on the underside of the top, one under each bridge foot mounted with super glue gel. Route the combined output into one side of a stereo Jack and the magnetic pickups on the other and process them separately. Works great, I do this on cellos and archtops.
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there's an interesting idea. My guitar is pretty big and I do tune down pretty far some times. Mildly worried about soundboard pickups with regards to volume and feedback. But I tried my baritone with a k&k mini and it sounded awesome once properly eq'ed. Originally Posted by Cavalier
Wish there were more clips or info on it.
Edit: I see that they still have their true archtop model around. A little reticent about crazy glue, but it does mean I can use something like the aura or tone dexter with it later, if need be. Nice to have an out if I don't like the sound. That's enticing.Last edited by feet; 01-24-2020 at 07:34 AM.
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