Fender Deluxe Reverb or Princeton Chorus

[jorgemg1984]

Fortunately for me, I can not at all relate to what you are saying here . . . I can't even imagine it! Here . . . try thinking about this scenario; you're in your living room . . . . . . you have a few friends over . . . . your all time favorite jazz guitar player (living or deceased) stops by to say hello . . . . you all talk him into playing a few songs . . . . however, the only guitar you have in the house is an old Kay archtop with strings that should have been changed a year ago. Your jazz guitar idol smiles, tunes up the guitar and proceeds to play some of your favorite jazz classics in chord melody style. Are you telling me you will not "hear the music"?? What if every amp and every guitar in the world sounded like shit? Would you be less interested in jazz guitar music?

Don't get me wrong . . . I love great jazz guitar tone. I prefer great jazz guitar tone . I try to achieve great guitar tone. I will not worry myself sick about getting great jazz guitar tone, until after I have achieved the ability to create great jazz guitar music. And, even then, it will remain a distant second to the music.

I know it's stupid but it also happens to me with fusion guys like Gambale or Holdsworth - sometimes the content is great but I hate the sound. I have to make an effort in the future, right now I am happy with lots of guitar players that I love both content and sound

[jorgemg1984]

Logically, if tone is more important than content, we are led to a situation in which a guitar without a guitar player -- merely placed on a stand -- becomes the performer.

Maybe some one could sit beside the guitar and occasionally rake his or her fingers across the strings while the audience goes oooh and ahhh...

Tone is AS IMPORTANT as content to me - a slight yet important difference.

[cjm]

Tone is AS IMPORTANT as content to me - a slight yet important difference.

Okay, the logical conclusion then becomes you would be just as happy to hear me play a Benedetto through a Henricksen amp as you would be to hear the reincarnation of Joe Pass playing a Fender Esquire through a Peavey with a nasty buzz.

That being the case, I am happy to accept your offer to perform in Portugal for one week at $10,000.00 U.S. per day, plus air fare, hotel, meal, and local transportation expense, a new Benedetto that I will keep, and the use of a Henricksen amp for the week.

And I like single malt Scotch and Belgian chocolates and there better be both in my hotel room.

Plus, my wife is coming with me.

[Patrick2]

Are we really going to have another conversation about Grant Green's stanky tone?

You hear the lines first, but the tone definitely enhances it.

I love that Tal Farlow story though!!! ;-)

To the OP: Glad you got an amp you dig! If you really want to get crazy run the DR with the Henriksen in stereo. I think you will find that sonically they do a great job of filling each other's voids. You can get the sparkle of the Fender's top end with the nice bass response of the Henriksen. A guitar player in my town does that same thing with a Polytone and a Princeton Reverb, beautiful full tone!

I know it's stupid but it also happens to me with fusion guys like Gambale or Holdsworth - sometimes the content is great but I hate the sound. I have to make an effort in the future, right now I am happy with lots of guitar players that I love both content and sound

I don't think it's stupid at all. Stupid is a pretty harsh word. I also think, based upon your comments about fusion guys like Gambale and Holdsworth, I might have misinterpretted your sentiment. Now, I think I understand your sentiment a little better. I thought you were just commenting on some of the players who were not able to get the "to die for" standard jazz tone . . . and that you couldn't listen to great jazz players with a mediocre jazz tone.

Now I understand you better . . . and to a certain extent, I do agree with you. For example . . . I once told a true story here in this forum about opening the window on the passenger side of my SUV . . . then ejecting the Pat Martino, Wes Montgomery Tribute CD out of the player and flinging it frisbee style out the window and into the trees on the side of the road while driving at 75. (don't worry, there was no one in the passenger seat and no cars to the right of mine) Pat's playing was good . . but the mix on the recording was so muddy and bassy I hated it. Similarly, when an artist is GOING for a certain sound, and it's not to my liking, I am less likely to be tolerant of it. Example; John Scofield. Sco can play realy well. But, he loves his edginess and his slight flange in his amp setting. I hate it!! But, I can listen to it for a while. What does NOT bother me, is hearing great standard jazz or bebop jazz lines, chords . . whatever, from a good player who just hasn't achieved that level of "tone excellence" what ever that is.

I know that might sound like a sentiment in conflict with itself . . . but, It's not.

[jorgemg1984]

I would be happy to hear you in Lisbon at a fair price if you had good tone and good content - I am sure someone will book you and meet all those requirements if you are that good (man all those fancy requirements and then an Henriksen? Really?).

I am not even the one who started this discussion and I admit I shouldn't care so much about tone and care more about content - which I will try to do in the future.

[jorgemg1984]

I don't think it's stupid at all. Stupid is a pretty harsh word. I also think, based upon your comments about fusion guys like Gambale and Holdsworth, I might have misinterpretted your sentiment. Now, I think I understand your sentiment a little better. I thought you were just commenting on some of the players who were not able to get the "to die for" standard jazz tone . . . and that you couldn't listen to great jazz players with a mediocre jazz tone.

Now I understand you better . . . and to a certain extent, I do agree with you. For example . . . I once told a true story here in this forum about opening the window on the passenger side of my SUV . . . then ejecting the Pat Martino, Wes Montgomery Tribute CD out of the player and flinging it frisbee style out the window and into the trees on the side of the road while driving at 75. (don't worry, there was no one in the passenger seat and no cars to the right of mine) Pat's playing was good . . but the mix on the recording was so muddy and bassy I hated it. Similarly, when an artist is GOING for a certain sound, and it's not to my liking, I am less likely to be tolerant of it. Example; John Scofield. Sco can play realy well. But, he loves his edginess and his slight flange in his amp setting. I hate it!! But, I can listen to it for a while. What does NOT bother me, is hearing great standard jazz or bebop jazz lines, chords . . whatever, from a good player who just hasn't achieved that level of "tone excellence" what ever that is.

I know that might sound like a sentiment in conflict with itself . . . but, It's not.

Yes, I agree - sometimes there are guitars players that have a "just fine" tone and great content - I know some cases here and I really dig those players. Some players have a tone I really can't stand hearing even if they have a lot of good solos... Exactly as you said

PS - I wasn't worried about your car story - after several years of Lisbon traffic and one year of Brazilian traffic nothing can surprise me anymore (and that was a terrible tone by Pat - he had such a clear bright beautiful tone on "El Hombre"...)

[cjm]

I would be happy to hear you in Lisbon at a fair price if you had good tone and good content - I am sure someone will book you and meet all those requirements if you are that good (man all those fancy requirements and then an Henriksen? Really?).

Well, I never said I was any good, but I should get a nice tone with that outfit and I could play the Alley Cat Song for several hours each evening.

But, just to be clear, you're withdrawing the offer?

[jorgemg1984]

If you're just talking about archtop and Henriksen I doubt you would get a good tone without speaker replacement and decent reverb pedal. And I don't believe you will get a good sound by having good gear. Gear makes your sound BETTER not GOOD - I would have to know you had a good tone and good solos in the first place.

And you rather give you a good tube amp or my jazzmaster ultralight instead of the Henriksen

[cjm]

I would have to know you had a good tone and good solos in the first place.

I play the Alley Cat Song pretty much straight.

[Patrick2]

Okay, the logical conclusion then becomes you would be just as happy to hear me play a Benedetto through a Henricksen amp as you would be to hear the reincarnation of Joe Pass playing a Fender Esquire through a Peavey with a nasty buzz.

That being the case, I am happy to accept your offer to perform in Portugal for one week at $10,000.00 U.S. per day, plus air fare, hotel, meal, and local transportation expense, a new Benedetto that I will keep, and the use of a Henricksen amp for the week.

And I like single malt Scotch and Belgian chocolates and there better be both in my hotel room.

Plus, my wife is coming with me.

I was thinking that this was a pretty good deal. . . up until the Belgian chocolate demand. Yeah . . . right!! And I suppose you'd want dark chocolate too???? I'd say that's a deal breaker. I'd agree to Hershey's semi sweet . . . but, that's about as extravagant as I'd allow . . . and only in consideration of your wife being with you . . . otherwise, it would be only Nestles milk chocolate.

[cjm]

I was thinking that this was a pretty good deal. . . up until the Belgian chocolate demand. Yeah . . . right!! And I suppose you'd want dark chocolate too???? I'd say that's a deal breaker. I'd agree to Hershey's semi sweet . . . but, that's about as extravagant as I'd allow . . . and only in consideration of your wife being with you . . . otherwise, it would be only Nestles milk chocolate.

No Belgian chocolate...no Alley Cat Song.

[Jazz_175]

And you rather give you a good tube amp or my jazzmaster ultralight instead of the Henriksen

Is the jazzmaster ultralight so much better than the Henriksen?

[jorgemg1984]

It's very subjective... to me it is but I bet most people here would feel the opposite. In fact I just sold the Henriksen and bought a 2x12 to use with the jazzmaster ultralight, to me it's in a whole other league. But I would never advise you to do the same, if you can compare both. I did it and there was no doubt...

[Jazz_175]

Which 2x12 did you buy?

[jorgemg1984]

I found a good deal on a 2x12 Dr Z Open back unloaded cab and I had a spare Jensen Tornado. Got another one, I am doing the breaking-in in the new speaker and I am waiting for my tech to give my jazzmaster ultralight head back - it was making a little noise. I tried briefly on his house and liked it a lot. Used my Fender M80 as a head and also liked it, I just wish the low end was a little more clear on those speakers...

Regarding JMUL vs Henriksen I think the JMUL as a combo (with the stock cabinet) is way ighter, louder and much more versatile - the EQ is powerfull and can go from the Henriksen / Polytone vibe to the Fender tube vibe. Also has nice reverbs, line out with speaker emulation and level control, nice OD and phones out... But the most important thing to me is that I felt I could have much more EQ control with the JMUL three buttons than with the six on the Henriksen and the JMUL is much more guitarristic - it feels and sounds like a regular tube amp, the Henriksen is like playing trough a good PA voiced for guitar.

The Henriksen with an EV, controls flat (to use an EQ pedal) and good pedals (Delay, Reverb) was nice indeed but too expensive. And I also found the Henriksen a littlen unbalanced - it was tough to have all the strings balances across all frets and this doesn't happen with all my other amps.