-
So I'm all set to drop a three-point mount Lollar CC pickup into an archtop...
I need some help with the installation of the pickup.
Does anyone know how to get the springs on? Its maddening!
-
09-15-2011 09:42 PM
-
I like the CC like pickups too. However, I prefer those which fit in a humbucker mount. A humbucker mount is far more versatile than the classic CC mounting. There is is hardly a type of PU that doesn't come in humbucker diguise. Pete Biltoft of Vitage Vibe Pickups has one called the HCC (be sure to ask for the hexangular top plate with the white edges, resembling, though not identical to, the original CC), and I believe that Jason Lollar also has one with two point mounting, which looks like the original CC, and one which fit in a preexisting humbucker mount, which doesn't look like the original CC though).
-
I am going to venture a SMALL amount of glue gun glue to hold the spring to the base of the magnet. I have not tried this either and never plan to
-
I thought the glue might work, but the springs won't fit through the pickup hole in the top when attached...unless I bend them/compress them, and then they fly off. I found a thread on this subject on TGP, and the other guy with my problem had his guitar at a luthier's for months before getting it solved. He didn't really say how they solved it, other than the luthier made a special tool.
-
I have done this ( once!), years ago. The springs have to be small enough to just fit through the hole, and they have to be fastened somehow in position over the nuts. The whole assembly has to be lowered downwards through the hole, magnet first, whilst holding the assembly by the pickup blade, and then turned 90 degrees into position so that the screws can be inserted from the top.
It's not too bad, but takes a few tries.
You might need to shorten the springs somewhat, if they won't fit, but they have to be fastened somehow to the baseplate, otherwise they will spring/fall off, as you say.
The whole assembly is archaic - there are HB mounts that sound similar - but you do get the authentic, very flat & dense sound ( ie from a heavily damped top!!!!) and look.
-
love the old CC - just out of curiosity what are you mounting it on ? pics ??
-
Ok, how about magnets?
Screws and springs are steel right?
Small earth magnets on screw heads, dowel rod with blue tack on end with spring loosly pushed on, put through pickup hole and place onto magnetised screw so spring will be attracted, pull away blue tacked rod, spring remains! Do furthest screw first. place in pickup, hold in place, remove magnet from screw which maybe magnetised and screw into place.....
be careful with these as they could remagnetise the CC pickup and possibly spoil the sound!
Having repaired electrics on ES 355's any tips are always welcome.
-
that would be my guess.. alnico is very easy to demagnatize (even just storing the magnets improperly can do it.. as I found out)
Originally Posted by jazzbow
-
Golf tees?
push them through the bottom of the plate.. just snug enough to stay in place (almost like putting in the screws but from the bottom).. get the pickup in position and use your screw to push the tee out (at the same time screw it in.. I dont know if you know what I mean
-
I know this seems ridiculously obvious..but what method does Lollar suggest?
After all...they did come up with this design.
Cheers
Dave
-
Actually, it was Gibson who made that design in the 1930s. But Lollar has mounting instructions on his web site, though none about how to hold the springs in place.
The 3-point mounting of the original CC was likely designed out of necesssity because those big and heavy cobalt magnets had to be anchored to the top. It's my guess that Gibson would have come up with a now conventional 2-point design if they have had modern Alnico magnets at hand - which they eventually did as soon as smaller magnets became available in 1940. The CC with its 3-point mounting only survived from 1936 to 1940. Thereafter it was only produced in very limited numbers from NOS parts for people who specifically requested it from the custom shop and in small special edition runs - the ES175CCin the late 1960s and the ES150CC reissue around year 2000.
A difference between the original CC and Lollars CC is that the original has the huge cobalt magnets in which the screws are mounted. The Lollar version has smaller Alnico V magnets mounted directly at the coil just like in modern PUs. Thus the mounting protrutions in the 3-point Lollar PU are magnetically inert and serves no other purpose than providing a bracket for mounting the PU the same way as the original for those who want that for nostalgic reasons (nothing wrong with that - myself I have a Triggs made Stromberg Master 400 copy).
Like I wrote in an earlier post, I have a guitar with an original 1938 CC. From personal experience, I can say that a 3-point mounting with three screws, three springs and three shims under the screw heads in the top, offers rich opportunities for rattles and buzzes. That only gets worse as the holes in the top for the screws get a little worn and widened. There are photos of Barney Kessel and his CC equipped 350 where one can se that he has stuffed folded paper into the gap between the PU and the top - no doubt to stop an annoying buzz.
Lollar has another version of his CC with the original look but with two point mounting (much like a Strat PU) to help those who don't want to deal with the hassle of 3-point mounting. The PU itself is the same. Still, I think a humbucker mount is technically an even better solution - but it doesn't have the "right" look.
-
actually.. going with the Greco line of thinking..
Ask Jason Lollar... either he (or Greg) always get back to me by email very quickly and with good advise (unlike other CC type pu makers).
-
On this picture of a Dutch luthier Daniel Slaman archtop, you can see that the springs are already attached to the pickup (a Lolar even!). I guess you could superglue them or even solder? From a technical/functional point of view that wouldn't matter.
(You could ask Daniel what his trick is, he's a nice guy and I'm sure he wouldn't mind: Daniel Slaman guitars. He speaks some English too ;-)Last edited by Little Jay; 09-17-2011 at 02:25 PM.
-
Solved it before returning to this post. I used dental floss through the two holes closest to the bobbin, through the springs, and then looped through the mounting holes. (this also allowed me to pull the pickup into position, as it weighs a good bit...I ended up holding the floss in my teeth so I could have both hands free to do other work....and sip my beer) A little wiggling and the screws went into the mounts. For the third and furthest hole, forceps and patience. I didn't snap pictures of how I did it, as I really didn't it would work. Pictures of the guitar will be in the next few days. It's a '52 Epi Century that I bought as a basket case. It needed the neck reset, and it needed to be rebound. The pickup was the only expensive part. Now I basically have a ES-350 for about $500.
-
The Bigsby and Bigsby bridge are temporary.
-
Great idea. I wonder why I didn't come to think of that earlier in this thread as I actually used the same method when swapping a PU on my 175 - tied strings to each of the knobs and the output jack before dropping them into the box to make sure I could pull everything back in place again. I don't know if that's how pro technicians do it, but it worked for me - and now for you. Originally Posted by customxke
I can see you have omitted shims under the screw heads. That way you have one less source of buzzes. A trapeze tailpiece, a wood bridge and perhaps (or perhaps not?) a pickguard and you are set to go.
Good luck with the guitar. You have something that should come very close to the sound of the original 1930s ES150 - at a fraction of the cost of that.
BTW, the tape recorder in the picture to the left of the Epi - is that a Tandberg? (They were very popular in my youth in the 1960s. I had one, and they score highly on my nostalgia meter).
-
I use something similar to the "string technique" on pots and switches....vinyl tubing, but have never used it in a PU installation. I didn't use the washers because I don't think they're necessary. Yes...good eye...its a tube Tandberg Radio quadra-track. It sounds great as tape deck, as well as a blues harmonica amp! I'm definitely going to a wooden bridge and trap tail on this one....and then I'm probably going to sell it. Its a great guitar, but I'm trying to fund an alnico'd Super 400 right now.
-
Hello!
What sort of structural problems or such does one normally consider when installing a full original style CC pickup into an archtop guitar. It's an idea in the back of my head involving an acoustic 5th Avenue from Godin...but I've noticed some people on other places in the magical Internet that the bracing on the 5th Avenue is too feeble?
In sum, I'm curious as to what one need's to pay attention to while installing or planning to install a CC pickup.
Anyone have any experience?
-
Not so much an issue of feeble. Sometimes the braces are too close to the pickup for it to mount properly. I installed a pickup my Epi Emp reg and had to trim the last 3/4 of an inch from the braces.
You also want to consider how high the fingerboard sits above strings. I had a hard time getting the pickup even close to the strings because on the EmpReg the neck sits a good 3/4 of an inch above the top. If I were trying to install on my ES165 I would be in the same boat. My ES125 has a neck that sits flush with the top (or almost and would be a much easier fit.
YMMV
-
Apart from the issue of cutting the braces, you may also want to consider the thickness of the top. The original CC pickup is much heavier than modern pickups. The sheer weight of it can be a problem if the guitar is bumped around, even when it is in its case. The inertia in the heavy pickup can put stress on the top and cause cracks. As a structural precaution, the tops of the original ES 150 and 250 guitars, though they were spruce, were carved much thicker than tops on acoustic models.
Of course this doesn't apply to laminated tops. Here the CC pickup can be mounted safely.
Based on my own experience, I would hesitate to mount an original CC pickup. I have an old Gibson L37 which sometime along the line has been fitted 1938 CC (the one with the notch under the B string). It's VERY noisy. It's unbalanced (the low E string is considerably louder than the other strings). The mounting screws tend to work themselves a bit loose and then the shims under them will buzz. Some have solved this by removing those shims but then the screws will dig themselves down in the wood of the top as time passes. For these reasons, my old L37 is more a museum piece than a utility instrument. Those old CC pickups has a certain air around them - but IMHO more for nostalgic reasons than for excellence of sound or convenience.
For a working utility instrument, I would instead suggest one of the modern CC approximations in humbucker shape (say, Biltoft or Lollar). A PU mounted in humbucker ring can easily be swapped later. With a PU mounted in the original CC way with the three screws in the top, a swap would take at least some butchery and leave som scars. The modern CC like PUs are much better shielded and better balanced.
There was a thread here some months ago where a forum member fitted a CC PU with the original mount. You may want to do a search.
-
I read it on the WWWeb that the soundboard of the original ES-150 with Charlie Christian pup was only carved on the top but left flat on the underside. The weight of the CC had something to do with it.
Also, and this I did not read on the WWWeb, I lusted after the modern incarnation of the CC until I tried a Lollar 3-point mount CC in an Eastman. It was a good sounding pickup but not what I had imagined it to be. I found that I liked the floating Johnny Smith humbucker much much better. The Johnny Smith was what I had expected the modern CC to sound like.
The new CC ain't the old CC. Try one before you go through all the fuss and see if you remain convinced of its tone.
Oldane has sage advice and you would do well to heed it.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 06-23-2012 at 05:10 AM.
-
I forgot one important detail:
The necks on modern archtops are most often set much higher than on the old ones. On the original ES 150, the fretboard actually is resting on the top and the guitar had no neck extension. If you mount an old CC pickup on a a modern guitar with the neck set higher, you may not be able to get the PU close enough to the strings. Check that out carefully before you make any final decisions.
-
Alot of those points, I hadn't really considered, thanks!
I'd love to actually try a guitar with a CC pickup, but where I am, it can be hard to find that sort of thing, even just to find a decent variety of archtops! I'll definitely be on the lookout.
-
Lollar has complete mounting diagrams with exact measurements available on his website.
Available with two point and three point mounting systems. Two-point mount requires 4.25" between braces.
-
I love the HCC blade pickup from Pete Biltoft. Its warm fat and clear. Never muddy and has great chordal note seperation and it fits in a standard humbucker route.
'Mike
Reply With Quote
Track off new album release for anyone interested.
Today, 07:21 AM in Composition