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I hate to say it, but let the guy destroy his L7. It is, after all, his. If a person with the financial means to do so purchased Martin pre-War D-45s (only 91 in existence or made, I can't recall which) for the purpose of having very expensive camp fires, is it any of my business?
I would certainly have an opinion. I would frankly be appalled. However, in a nation of laws I lack the right to abridge a property owner from disposing of his property as he sees fit to do so--except in instances for which the law provides me some privilege to intrude, e.g., if the property owner is harming me by his property use. (Example: if my neighbor ties goats to trees in his front yard in my neighborhood, it may drive _my_ property value down. If, however, my neighbor crushes his Gibson L7, while it may keep me awake at night the law provides me with no reason for influencing my neighbor's behavior.)
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11-09-2017 12:58 PM
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I'm not saying don't do the mod but ,
It might be easier to sell the L7
and buy an ES150 ?
(Its a poor mans ES250 ! After all)
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Thanks for the replies guys!
You guys who cut the tonebars, like how Slaman does it, I commend your commitment to getting "that sound". I don't believe my L7 has a thicker top to accommodate a pickup in any way, I really don't think that's something that Gibson would do on a guitar they intended to be acoustic. However, I bet your guitars will be exhibit very little to no sinkage in our lifetimes!
To you guys who have voiced very strong, slightly butthurt, opinions on routing a guitar... I totally get it. Piece of history, don't make them anymore, etc. Yes, this is not my first rodeo guys, I definitely know the reasons NOT to do it. You guys are never going to own this guitar unless I die unexpectedly, knock on wood, and in that case I am not caring too much about the state of the top. Still, I commend your conservationist attitude towards these guitars... There was definitely a time I shared your opinion! The monkey on a stick is not an option for me.
As to "the 175 was made for organ trio", seriously that's a pretty ridiculous statement. Should probably go back in time and let Grant/Wes/KB know that their guitars can't be played with organ! Some of us just refuse to slum it like that with a lam guitar!
All joking aside, I happily endorse Benedetto guitars and my Americana is my undisputed #1 guitar! This L7 is for a very specific vintage sound and application.
Many guitars were retrofitted by Gibson, probably just by hacking the tone bars... I have played 2-3 myself, have friends who have played and owned many more. I have yet to hear of, or see, the proof of an ACTUAL Gibson guitar which has a sunken top due to a rout. I'm not talking Harmony/Silvertone/Vega and other budget brands... It's like the bogeyman!
Slaman is probably the guy to talk to about this, however it would be extremely hard to get a guitar to him as I'm in Canada... Thanks for the recommendation! I definitely WILL be getting a luthier to do the work, and it WILL be reinforced in whatever way is necessary to make it durable and last at least my lifetime. However, I'm still curious to how GIBSON used to do it, the few times I played a factory retrofit CC I wan't looking inside the guitar!
If anyone has such a guitar, or has examined the bracing on one, any insight is greatly appreciated! I should probably post it in the builder's section, new to this site!Last edited by Bromando; 11-09-2017 at 05:32 PM.
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Would you consider trading it for a wonderful, fully-carved archtop located in Toronto, that has already had the top cut, had a pickup installed, and can accommodate a 3-point-mount Lollar CC pickup? Widely spaced parallel braces fully intact.
Last edited by Hammertone; 11-11-2017 at 03:59 AM.
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Gibson used to routinely retrofit guitars, just like mine, with 3-bolt CC pickups. From everything I've heard/read they just cut the braces and didn't use any reinforcement. I have never actually looked inside one of those guitars, I would love to know how they did it for sure... Hence this thread!
What I haven't ever heard of first hand is a Gibson retrofit guitar having a sunken top from a FACTORY CC install.
I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest here, and definitely not trying to get into an argument about what Wes played etc... But I will say he moved off a laminate as soon as he could. Also, when he recorded the first album he borrowed KB's L7 and amp just to get a better tone than whatever lam (125/300?) he was currently playing.
I'm pretty suspicious that the X-brace thing is just legend, there is no proof whatsoever that Gibson braced any post '39 L5s that way, and they certainly don't on the signature model. It would be great to know for sure. I know his son told me that one of his brothers still has all 3 of the L5s, maybe one day he can take a picture inside the guitar for all of us wondering...
...and no, if you showed me a concrete example where a Gibson L-series carved archtop has a collapsed top from a CC install I would definitely NOT purchase/install the pickup. I just don't care about how many 5th avenue/assorted budget guitars couldn't take the weight... No offense to anyone with one!
The real question here for me now is, I politely posed this query to the forum in hopes that someone with first hand knowledge would reply... Who are you to lecture me with this patronizing type-tone? Do you own one of the guitars/pickups I'm referencing?
No offense meant, but come on man!Last edited by Bromando; 11-09-2017 at 03:54 PM.
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Bromando,
It is your guitar and you can do with it as you wish.
Nothing will change the fact that cutting up this historical instrument would be an act of very bad taste.
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I played a JS with a factory-installed CC a few years back, and remember the guitar like it was yesterday. It had no issues at all. Damn, I should have bought it - it was great. I didn't have a chance to look inside the top, but I''ll bet it was interesting.
I'm under the impression that L-5C guitars were available cross-braced as well as parallel-braced, but can't remember where I got that info - I'll do some digging in the archives...
In the meantime, for edumacational purposes, here are back views of some Gibson 17" carved top plates. These are from the 1960s/1970s - I never bothered to date them more closely: JS, L-5/7, L-5CES/Byrdland, L4CES/L4/50. The S-400 top is older. Might be helpful to those who are trying to figure out what goes where.
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I don't care about the historical provenance of the instrument nearly as much as I care about having a ES-250 style guitar in great playing condition. I can't afford a 150 or 250 or I, as many of you suggested, would of bought one of those instead. Even a 150 usually goes for over twice what I paid for my L7...
It is a totally period-correct modification, and something many of the great jazz guitarists of the 40s-50s did. Maybe Hank Garland and Barney Kessel had bad taste to your palette?
Clearly this was the wrong place to ask this question, not sure why some of you seem to get emotional over another mans guitar.
Thanks to those who gave informed and helpful replies! I think I'll email Slaman...
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Here's one I worked on. It was cut for a P-90 when it was new or close to new, which did not require cutting through the braces. I installed the mini-humbucker - it sits on and is attached to the braces. Still stable after @twenty years.
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Whoa! I'd me sorely tempted to trade for Hammertone's S-300. What a guitar! (full disclosure: I own two guitars I purchased from Hammertone and would eagerly do business with him again. Great guy.)
In carpentry, when you cut a load-bearing joist, you "sister" that support structure by adding support around it. Does anyone do this after cutting top tone bars when adding a pickup?
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That's what I'm talking about man!
Originally Posted by Hammertone
Damn it's hard to find pics like that of top plates off the guitar... Some of those look like the bracing would just be nicked to install a CC. Much appreciated!
That JS actually looks like the X meets much higher than many of the other guitars I've seen that are X braced... They must of cut them to install that CC?
I know you have probably routed more of the guitars than anyone in these parts, have you ever seen a Gibson or equivalent quality guitar actually have a problem with that small amount of bracing chopped?
Obviously a CC is a bit heavier than a mini-hb to say the least... Can you add transverse braces through an F hole, or do you have to take the whole thing apart? Methinks you have to take it apart...
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Yes I would love to have the braces reinforced like that, but who around here is gonna do that work for anything less than mucho bucks? When Gibson used to chop a guitar for a CC, did they really take the whole thing apart and add reinforcement like that? Originally Posted by Hammertone
It's interesting how many transverse braces were on those L5CES guitars. No wonder they all sound pretty dead, though sure it pays off at volume!
EDIT: Holy shit that's an invasive mod to that L-50... I'm not sure I'd want to go as far as to rebrace the guitar as an X brace, even a heathen like me has to draw the line somewhere!
I'm sure it sounds killin though...
I would do unspeakable things to get that Elvis L5 aha...
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Bromando -- here you go:
1937 ES-150 Tribute Guitar
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Man that's awesome. That is definitely one way to brace the pickup, must be rock solid.... Like combining an X brace for just the pickup with the top's original parallel. Definitely do not have the skills or $$ to do this thorough of a rebuild/rebrace! Originally Posted by Jehu
Thanks!
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I have seen CC pickups installed on all sorts of Gibson acoustic archtops. They all sounded great.
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Bromando, maybe you should ask Ed Cherry how he got his L-7C modified for the CC Blade?
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... or better yet, keep the L7 and buy an ES-150 ... win/win! Originally Posted by pingu
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Bromando,
I think things should be handled more dispassionately too, but I agree with the assessment that cutting top braces will hurt the guitar. I strongly believe that this is your business entirely.
My mentor had a 30s L5 with a CC, but I believe it was X-braced...no cut needed. Fabulous guitar. I don't know about Kenny Burrell and Wes Montgomery's L-5C guitars. Burrell had a CC in his.
Sorry for the tone. You are very welcome here.
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"None the less, when he had an L5 custom made for him it had an X brace PRECISELY so that they could mount a pickup without cutting through the braces."
are you sure about this? why wouldn't Gibson simply parallel and cross brace it like a CES model?
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I think L7's sound great with a pickup
Chris Flory's got a wonderful vibe with his
(I believe its an L7)
Way cool
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Speaking of L7’s with pickup; I believe Billy Rogers played an L7. Does anyone know if it had routed or floating pickup? Last I recall, Rick Zunigar owned the instrument.
Albert
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Bromando -- I don't know if anyone is mentioned it, but have you considered a Biltoft floating CC? Sounds pretty great to me, and seems like the solution to your situation (if you have space for it).
Time to chose your CC pick up ! PU & archtop comparison
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Somebody forgot to admonish this guy! Too late...
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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
he bought it like that Jabs, I passed on that one about 20 yrs ago.
probably shouldn't have, sounds killah in that clip.
the installation may have missed the bracing as that's an early X braced Super.
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That Super 400 clip DOES sound great!
The problem in this case is that we won't see any clips involving ruined guitars....nobody would admit to it, if it happened.
Like product testimonials, the dissatisfied never get heard from, and we get a severely skewed sample.
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A really nice pickup in a cheap guitar
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