-
This live version of "The Shadow of Your Smile" comes from a compilation LP that had several different guitar players on it. There might have been one other song with Benson on this LP which was released in 1972.
"Vintage Guitar" had a great interview with Benson back in March 2010 where he talked about some of the guitars that he's played over the years. He said that he recorded most of his CTI records, along with Stanley Turrentine's "Sugar," Freddie Hubbard's "Straight Life,"and Lou Donaldson's "Alligator Boogaloo," with a Guild X-500. He also mentioned the Guild Artist Award that they gave him which might have been used on "Beyond the Blue Horizon." Benson bought a D'Angelico New Yorker for a $1,000 and this is the guitar he used on "Bad Benson" and some other things. He said he bought the Gibson Johnny Smith from a guy that knocked on his door with that guitar to sell and he got it for $550. The recording sessions in L.A. for "Breezin" were really the first time that he had played the Johnny Smith.
-
05-23-2013 08:35 PM
-
I read that article. Yes, It was great.
I've heard most of the CTI albums of GB's, plus Turrentine's and yes, the tone on most of them is similar. To me, that is a "GUILD" tone, not a Gibson. Brighter, not as big a "body" sound even tho the size was similar. Let's face it, GIbson's have their own voice.
But, if you want great TONE, playing, and GB singing - get yoself a copy of "The Other Side of Abbey Road". All his best is right there.
I really enjoy his work and TONE on the Breezin' album. Polytone amp, he said.
-
I have a Wesmo L5 and I can't make it sound like that.....yeah I know I ain't him.
To be brutally honest I've never heard a recording of an L5 I've been blown away with.
Only 2 sounds that I would aspire to and one is that Benson tone in the first clip and the other is Kenny Burrell.
Now I know Kenny played a Super400 and I've seen GB with a Super 400 in the early days.
Although there is a clip of GB (backing the tap dancer) playing a D'Angelico and the tone is close to the SOYS clip.
On any other guitar GB played, he never sounded like THAT.
"Woody" is not a word I would use to describe that tone. There is a depth or roundness behind the note....a "round bounce". There is also plenty of treble for the note attack.
Why in the world did jazz players start using 2mil plectrums and turning their tone control back??.......have you ever heard a good sound employing THAT technique? I've heard plenty of crap sounds employing that technique.
The "dark" sound.......WHAT??? .....who invented that load of bollocks?
I would also suggest that he is using a light pick (Fender Medium) and in those opening passages he is playing very lightly and very near the front pickup.
Plus he is striking the string with his plectrum slightly side ways.......because he invented the Benson picking technique!
-
RE "The Other Side Of Abbey Road" Yeah I have that album and it is a great sound. He is pictured with a Guild on the cover.
But there is heavy, heavy production on that sound. Compression and distortion....but not pedals.
It very well could be the sound on the first clip but it's not ever that exposed so it's hard to tell. He seems to be soloing with his thumb on some tracks.
Fat and juicy.
No one has that tone anymore. Not even him. No one.
-
Benson's, "The Other Side of Abbey Road," was one of the main reasons that I bought a Guild X-175. It looks like an X-175 (chrome hardware) on the cover, but who knows what he was actually using on the album. I've seen pictures of Benson playing what looks like an X-500 with the Franz pickups and I wonder if that's what he was using on some of the CTI recordings. When I saw Benson in 1974 and 1975 on the CTI Summer Jazz tours he was playing D'Angelicos both times. He had the sunburst one that might be on the cover of "In Concert at Carnegie Hall" in 1974 and the Blonde New Yorker on the tour in 1975.
-
Benson is the best!
I just listened to Good King Bad and Weekend in LA today - not real straight ahead jazz, but good music nonetheless. His vocals are impeccable - how can one guy have so much talent?
-
Philco:
I like your in-depth study of his tone, you're right, there is a "bounce" to his notes, that almost always sound , for lack of a better adj. - happy. It's something I always liked about his playing from way back in the 60's, but the tone back then seemed to have more bounce.
Anyway, yes, it does come from his fingers and his picking technique, just comes out with different final tone depending on the guitar he's playing. I have noticed his "Benson" picking technique.
Did I ever tell you about the time I was at a guitar show, picked up a beautiful handmade archtop, made by a gifted luthier I had heard great things about. He welcomed me to try it out. i said I played electrics, so he found an amp for me to plug into.
Across the aisle was the booth for a famous jazz amp/cab maker, (not Polytone).
I plugged in, dialed up a good sound and began playing, loving the guitar. After a few minutes, the amp maker came right up and changed the tone on the amp, while I was playing!!!! He gave me the "dark sound", rolled off the tone!!!
Now, I'm not a bad player, so he wasn't trying quiet me down, he was just very proud of himself dialing in the tone that I "should have" . I was about to peuk at this display of "know it all" . If George Benson sat down there, would he have turned down his tone ? Hell no, he would have kissed his.....
I hate that dark tone as well, but you know what? It helps hide a lot of things.Last edited by Jimmy Mack; 05-23-2013 at 10:47 PM.
-
Well I like the heavy pick dark tone for single line - Martino - but it doesn't translate well in a live setting IMO, doesn't cut through. I also really dig high quality bright tones - I'm now striving for some sort of balance.
The 'shadow' clip sounds like a solid top to me - could be the Artist Award, you can get that sound on them, or it could be sumpin' else lol
like Phil points out - fender medium - that seems to be the main component to Benson's tone, which seems to be often overlooked from what I read around here. Particularly the tone he gets on the bass strings, they sound great for that, but the high E can get a bit thin/shrill/snappy if you hit it too hard.
Does GB do rest strokes as well? they definitely have their own sound
-
Interesting... You don't remember the album title by any chance? Must be fantastic to get that on vinyl.
Originally Posted by Blues Fuse
-
I love GB but don't care for this very much. it sounds like his hands are out of phase. I think that it sounds a little bit sloppy.
-
In the Premier Guitar interview in 2012 George mentions that he uses a "D’Angelico that I had in the closet. I only take that out on special occasions. I got a lot of my hit records with that guitar"
i think the laminates (gb10 etc) are his live guitars , smaller bodies, laminated tops etc make them more suitable for playing on stage with the band, more sturdy, less feedback
he also mentiones tomuse a lighter gauge flats on stage, whereas to record with a heavier gauge rounds
just shows that the majority of his sound is in his playing, and that the stage pics dont tell you how the records were made
-
Others have said that he uses a rest stroke sometimes but It's very hard to tell by looking at clips. He certainly sweeps a lot in both directions. The sweeping technique is sometimes used on only 2 strings so technically speaking that is a rest stroke. He does a lot of 2 string sweeps. But he also does those triplets by just picking fast....especially descending. The technique lends itself to that. Originally Posted by 3625
Re the Artist Award. They have a specific sound. I had 2 in the 80's (I had to send one back because of a bad neck joint) and when I heard our list member "Reg" playing his I realised what a distinctive tone they have. Mine sounded just like Reg's. It's uncanny, the similarity.
I would guess....and it's just a guess, that the guitar in that clip is not an AA.
.......and there is a record of Pat Martino's where he had a great sound to my ears..."El Hombre"
and yeah....once again it's a Super 400.
When he went solid body IMHO he lost the tone.........I mean ...."The Tone"
No solid body electric has that "bounce and depth" behind the note. That's why I sold my Tele.
You are right about the Fender Med being really bright on the top strings. I find myself changing the angle of the pick to compensate and get a fatter sound when on those strings.
But for clarity of sweeping and clean articulation on the bass strings it's a great pick.
I think a good compromise is the Dunlop Ultex range. Not to thick though. .73 maximum. They don't have that incredibly high frequency snap when you strike a string.
I'll change my mind in a minute or two.
-
I'm still with you Philco, "El Hombre" is one helluva recording. Bought it in about 1970, and guess what, I haven't heard any Martino albums since, that I dig. His playing gets very mechanical sounding, like he's practicing. But he really loses me when I hear his tone. What tone? The mechanical lines and the lack of tone. I just don't get it. Is it the speed that entices??
Then there are the guys with the big boxes, and FULL TREBLE!!! like they should really be playing a Tele! Ouch! The need to be heard?
-
This subject is most definitely a personal taste thing of course. One mans heaven is another's hell and all that.
Re Pat's albums. If you listen to "Just Friends" on the El Hombre I'm postulating that you're hearing Pat using his "minor conversion" method in it's earlier stages but the lines are interspersed with standard bop licks that keep the flavour tied a little to tradition.
As he moved more into the minor conversion concept I can see why people feel there is a mechanical or repetitive element.
But to my admittedly "jazz novice" ears everything converged on "Consciousness" and "Live" and he seemed to be at a technical peak.
There are solos that upon close scrutiny defy normal human capabilities.....both mechanically and harmonically.
I know.....from reading his book......that there was some substance use.......and most players on that gruelling circuit seemed to do this.
But putting that aside It still confounds me that someone can think and play that quickly......more the "think"......I can understand the mechanical side. It's the ability to cut those changes at that pace and make it sound like one big glorious melody.
Anyway......usually when someone is in awe of a performer it can be a measure of their personal lack of knowledge or an indicator of what part of their own personal journey they are at.
Perhaps one day I'll be able to say "yeah I understand how he did that".
But to come back on topic I think we have a fantastic recording of Pat with "that" sound and burning through the changes on "Just Friends"
My conclusion is that the sound that is attracting us is probably a Gibson Super 400 with a touch of distortion and compression, played by a master.
-
Actually just listening to "East" by Pat. Also a very nice sound. Not quite the one we have been discussing but a great sound none the less.
Now if that's a solid body it proves I have cloth ears!
-
Phil:
Every knows that the way to get "the tone" is to play a P-90-equipped early '50s ES-175.
Bwahahahaha!
-
-
I saw Martino at the Jazz Showcase a couple years ago--organ trio setting--I did not dig his tone at all. He was playing with a very very dark sound on a Marshall amplifier with a black Benedetto (was it a solid body? I don't know).
Muddy. Dark. Bleak sounding. Yuck, yuck, yuck.
-
Yeah, that one is beautiful! Bireli oftentimes gets a similar tone actually using an L5(I think the Wesmo), but the tone that Benson gets in the "Shadow of your Smile" recording is WAY more detailed.
If anybody figures it out, let me know the formula.
-
Same way I would describe Adam Roger's sound when I heard him with John Pattucci a few years ago the sound was an bass blur and he was using his own gear. I liked Pat's dark sound back in early days like on Consciousness album it was dark but still had note definition. I think today Pat's just uses whatever backline is there, cranks the bass, and figures it close enough. Originally Posted by NSJ
-
Hi Drifter, Originally Posted by Drifter
The Shadow of Your Smile by George Benson appears on the compilation "Les Plus Grands Moments du Jazz" Vol.2 Columbia Records released in 1990.
George Benson discography - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia See various artists compilation. They say the recording date is 1967.
http://www.discogs.com/Various-Les-P...elease/1726095
-
saw Ben Monder and there was the same muddiness or lack of clarity in the lower range. Originally Posted by docbop
man he is I big draw though with all the music students.
-
I always thought "woody" meant a more natural sound...this sounds vdry electric to me..I like it though.
To me, Peter Bernstein's current tone, like on "Monk" is "woody."
I'm not a blanket over the amp guy, but the sound some cats get with a super 400 with a floater who really dig in is too "brittle" for me...Bireli often has this tone to my ears.
To me, perfect tone is Jimmy Raney's 80's records on criss cross and steeplechase...natural enough thatyou know it's an archtop, and just enough electricity to smooth out the low end...
-
Pat Martino has mentioned in interviews that he used a Johnny Smith Gibson and a Twin on "El Hombre." Pat has great tone on that recording.
-
That really is a great tone. Too bad he ain't got no chops. Originally Posted by jayx123
Reply With Quote
Blues clip from Saturday
Yesterday, 11:54 PM in From The Bandstand