De Armond x-155 tuning

[wintonhouse]

I'm new to jazzguitar.be and new to jazz guitar. I've bought a De Armond X-155 from eBay and it's in beautiful condition, the neck looks good and the action is low but it just doesn't seem to tune, or stay in tune, well. I have 2 electronic tuners and they help but tuning it remains an imperfect art.

I've looked at everything I could find on the internet, including these pages, and so I've tried moving the bridge; tightening the tuner screws; and restringing it with 12s. But it still doesn't seem to be or stay well in tune.

I haven't lubricated the nut - or had it professionally set up.

There's a huge expertise and experience on these pages. Does anyone have other suggestions - or should I just get it down to a South London luthier?

Richard

[mr. beaumont]

Things going sharp or flat?

[wintonhouse]

I'll monitor that but I'm fairly sure the answer is "flat".

Richard

[mr. beaumont]

Strings going flat while playing is usually a tuner issue--or, if you're not used to playing an archtop and are a big "bridge rester," you could possibly be pushing the bridge forward as you play.

Could be as simple as a replacement on those tuners. Are you stretching the strings a little after putting then on? Are you using a method that allows the string to "lock" against the post as you wind it up?

[wintonhouse]

Yes, I have stretched the strings but, no, they aren't strung with the "locked" method. I'll try that next before I do anything with the tuners.

Thank you for the suggestion.

[mr. beaumont]

You're welcome.

Talk to me a little bit more about when you say you've "moved the bridge." How's the intonation on the guitar?

[NiAg]

Hi there. I had a 155 a few years back. Terrific guitar.

In my opinion/experience, tuning problems are almost never caused by the tuners themselves. Really. Check to be sure that the keys are reasonably well screwed on, but not crazy-tight.

>>> fairly sure the answer is "flat".

It will be very helpful if you can rather accurately describe the problem. Which strings, sharp or flat, and by how much? When does it happen?

How are you determining the correct bridge position? And, after you have positioned the bridge, please provide the distance from the nut to the center of the 12th fret, AND the distance from the center of the 12th fret to the front edge of the bridge on BOTH E strings.

The nut is absolutely the foundation of any decent setup. Slots that do not bind are important, and slots that are not too high have a major impact on both playability AND intonation in the lower positions.

Do definitely string up using the method Mr. B suggests. And keep the post windings down to a turn or two. Additional turns only add to the possible tuning problems.

You can check the nut slot height here:

Nut Action

Anyway, some details after re-stringing would be great.

Congrats on a fine guitar.

[wintonhouse]

Thank you both. I've a bit of work to do before I can reply fully to you but I'll do it and reply tomorrow.

Richard

[NiAg]

Sounds good Richard. Bear in mind that this guitar can definitely be set up to maintain very stable tuning; it's just a matter of walking through the details.

How do you like the "Classic that never was" Goldtone PU's?

It must have been tough for the Guild/FMIC team who did the DeArmond line. I mean they come up with a really solid product line, and get rave reviews on the 155.

Then people stayed away in droves and dealers blew out the 155 at silly-low prices.

Then the 155 became a minor cult classic as players "discover" this great guitar.

Then a ton of 155's got moved in the used market (often for far more than they were bought new).

It's a funny world sometimes.

[merlinshepherd]

Sometimes if the tailpiece is too low and the bridge set high then the strings exert a higher pressure on the bridge and this can cause the strings to go out of tune easier. However an advantage of having a higher pressure on the bridge is better sustain...you need to find a balance.

Good luck.

[NiAg]

[QUOTE=merlinshepherd;121782] if the tailpiece is too low and the bridge set high then the strings exert a higher pressure on the bridge and this can cause the strings to go out of tune easier

Say what?

I have never heard of this in practice. Can you elaborate on what is happening and how it affects tuning?

The 155 has a simple sheet metal tailpiece that is extremely unlikely to exert unusual downward pressure on the bridge.

But imagining a tailpiece with and adjustable angle (the Ibanez GB and the Gibson "fingers" tailpiece come to mind), I am at a loss as to how this would have any practical bearing on a guitar holding its tuning.

Do I miss something here?

[SamBooka]

I think understand what Merlinshepard is saying. I wouldnt have put it that way. Break angle doesnt cause tuning problems if your saddles are in good shape. We tend to focus on a poorly cut nut as a cause for tuning problems but you have to look at the entire length of the string for issues.

[NiAg]

SB,

I understand. And indeed given an extreme break angle over a bridge and some awful saddles you can have some trouble. I mean such as you find on some of the Bigsby B5 or B7 instals up close to the bridge.

The X-155 has a rosewood bridge and a simple sheet metal tailpiece with a typical archtop break angle. I think that Richard (OP) will do well to not expect trouble at the bridge.

Especially considering that many "binding nut pings" sound just like they come from the bridge.

[wintonhouse]

I think things are better now. I checked the nut and made sure the tuner screws were tight but not too tight, as you suggested, and they all seem to be OK.

Here is some background on the X-155. It's a 1999 model. I've always found it difficult to tune in a way that sounded right to me. Thinking this could be caused by my ears, I bought a Korg plug-in tuner.

I knew the bridge had been moved, perhaps often, because there were surface scratches on both sides of it. When I first restrung it, I found a small paper label stuck under the bridge with a printed line suggesting the correct bridge position. Putting the bridge roughly in that position (you can't see the printed line when it's covered by the bridge!) didn't seem to be right (when checking open strings against harmonic and fretted 12ths) so I then followed the bridge positioning advice on the Fender set-up page (dearmondguitars.com/setup.html).

As a result, the 1st E string is now 624 mm (24 9/16" - Fender specs. say it's 24 12/16") between the inside edges of the nut and the bridge, with 312 mm over the 12th fret. The angle of the bridge was a bit arbitrary but as it now is the 6th E string length is 630 mm. Some 12th harmonics and fretted notes are better than others but all are fairly OK.

After your emails, I carefully tuned all the open strings to the plugged-in Korg. Some strings such as the 6th E are harder to tune against the Korg than others - the notes swell and fade and there are overtones and undertones. The B 2nd and G 3rd strings seem particularly sensitive but then I have read that there's something of an intonation black hole there.

24 hours later, all the strings were slightly sharp (not flat as I suggested). Some intonement information on Taylor's website says that even small changes in the weather can have an effect - and that no guitar is perfect. It's a compromise.

So I'm beginning to think that I may have over-demanding ears and must stop "fretting" about it. Anyway, I feel sure that things will now be better now and I'm going to try restringing it with some flatwounds.

Your encouragement and suggestions have been very helpful. Thank you.

[NiAg]

Richard,

In my opinion:

- You have a very good guitar.
- It is hard to overstate just how much better a guitar can play when it is set up well.
- No, really. The difference is like night and day.
- It sounds like you are hunting in the dark a bit on getting this sorted out, but are getting there.

Some suggestions:

1. - The Korg tuner is OK. In my opinion, the Peterson Strobo Clip is a remarkably good and accurate tuner for a reasonable cost. In practical use, it is considerably more accurate than the Korg.

2. - Get the bridge into a good starting place. IF the distance from the nut to CENTER of the 12th fret is 312mm, then set the bridge so the front of the high E saddle is 625.5 mm from the nut and the front of the low E saddle is 628.5 mm from the nut.

This will not be perfect, but it will be closer than what you have now for most string sets and action heights. The bridge is intentionally set back from the theoretical position to compensate for some (but not all) aspects of string stretch as you play.

3. - There are no intonation black holes. Everything has a clear and simple reason behind it. There are limits and compromises to be made, but no mysteries.

4.- Your bridge is designed for a string set using a wound G string. If you prefer a plain steel G string, this plain G will require more compensation than a wound G. This is best accomplished with a different bridge. For this guitar, I suggest that you may be happiest with a wound G anyway - but tastes vary.

5. - The whole 12th fret harmonic intonation procedure is a fine basic way to do things. And it was de rigueur for a long time. With a decent tuner, however, it is more effective to ignore the harmonic.

Strings are not perfect. It is possible that the note at the 12th fret is slightly flat or sharp vs. the average of most of the other fretted notes in the neighborhood. It is generally more effective to check the intonation not just at the 12th, but at a few positions between (roughly) the 7th and 17th frets. Then adjust the bridge based on the overall picture, and not a specific single fret.

Fretted notes above around the 17th fret (this varies with string gauge), are more affected by "inharmonicity" than by bridge position, so they do not give a good gauge of the bridge position accuracy.

Notes below around the 7th fret are significantly affected by nut height, and a combination of fret height and playing style - so they also do not give a good gauge of the bridge position accuracy.

Also, do not just set the bridge for the E strings. It is worth checking the other strings as well and settling for an overall best fit.

The starting position I suggested should not be very far off at all. If it is off by more than a mm or so, please let us know. This would suggest that something may need attention.

6. - You mention:

>>> the notes swell and fade and there are overtones and undertones.

Yes, the notes start sharp on attack and settle slightly as the string rings.

Overtones are hard to tune to because of two reasons: They are based on pure intervals and thus do not always match the tempered notes of our scale. Also, some overtones are severely affected by the previously mentioned inharmonicity.

For many, it helps to tune by playing lightly, with your thumb, and not way back by the bridge.

There are no undertones on the vibrating string. On a few notes it is possible that there are undertones in the body resonance.

7. - Strings go sharp for two main reasons. One is temperature and/or humidity increases. The other is more complicated, but involves windings on the string post relaxing slightly and pulling on the rest of the string. If you use many turns on the post and also really "stretch" your strings, this can happen. One to two turns on the post is plenty.

8. - Last bit of AM blather:

The nut is step #1 in a great setup. The nut height affects playability and intonation to a great extent. Well cut nut slots prevent binding of the strings in the nut. It s very likely that you can make further improvements in the intonation of your guitar with no nut work. But for the best possible setup, the nut should be as well cut as possible. This is beyond the scope of a web-forum in general.

Hope some of this helps. Again, you have a really very good guitar that can definitely be set up to play and sound fantastic.

Go Packers (US Football).

[wintonhouse]

Thanks again - I'll be really interested to try what you suggest at the next restring. Incidentally, I do indeed have a plain steel G at the moment though on the pending set it is wound.

Your enthusiasm for the X-155 is very welcome. I feel lucky to have found one in such good condition - and now I feel sure I can get it right.

By the way, all the numbers on three of the four amplification knobs are aligned perfectly to each other but the fourth is way out. Do you remember whether these knobs just pull off? There is no obvious fixing screw.

Richard

[NiAg]

The knobs pull off. Pull straight up - try not to get the knob tilted.

Avoid prying the knob off unless you really know what you are doing. Cracking the skirt of the knob and denting the top of the guitar are "classics".

I have what started as a bamboo back scratcher that is a perfect knob pryer, but really a straight pull is the smart way to go.

If needed, you can get the tips of your index and middle fingers (that's a total of four) under the skirt, evenly spaced around the knob, then sort of curl them to lift the knob. It hurts, remarkably - but it often works. And then you can say that you truly suffer for your guitar.

You can make or buy a dedicated knob puller, but this is really not needed for most occasional uses.

[jazzbow]

Have you tried tuning in octaves?

[NiAg]

Hey Richard,

Jazzbow makes a good point. In the tempered scale (which we all use, your guitar is tempered at the factory when they lay out the fret spacing), the only note pairs that can be correctly tuned "beatless" are unisons and octaves.

So if you were, for example, to tune your Low E and A string until they played together with no "beats", you would be tuning a pure interval. But in a tempered scale the E to A interval is not pure. You should be able to slightly detect beats.

A big mistake (assuming you agree about tuning to the notes as agreed upon by the powers that be) is to tune using harmonics. And maybe the worst one is tuning the open B string to the B harmonic on the low E. The B harmonic on the E string is a pure interval above E, while the B string should be tuned to a tempered interval.

Blah, blah, blah,...

[wintonhouse]

Thanks, Jazzbow and NiAg - it's all fascinating stuff, I'm learning a lot, and really enjoying it. I'm sure it will be useful, too. Now I must research more about harmonic and octave tuning ..

[jazzbow]

Blah, blah, blah,...

Ha ha, yeah.....
I have a book by Dan Erlewine that has a whole chapter devoted to tuning a guitar...... The best method is the 'Fret the 5th/4th string to tune the next string!' Dunno what that's called

The harmonic tuning system is a quick get to method which I use then I tune in octaves, I find the B string to be problematic. The difference in fretted notes up the neck can be compensated to a mean average, try fretting C on the B string 1st fret then play the corresponding note on G, D, A, and E strings if you have enough frets! The further up the neck (A+E) the more 'out' it becomes (not too much mind).
On my own similar type hollow guitars I move the bridge to intonate the harmonic on the 19th fret and the fretted note for the B string and then the same for the A string, as the wooden bridge has the compensation already machined in then the other strings fall in as well.
As for losing pitch while you play it could be a whole mess of things, get a repitable tech or luthier to check.

Etc. Etc. Etc........

[NiAg]

>>> The harmonic tuning system is a quick get to method

In my mis-spent I-IV-V, power trio youth, I used to tune in harmonics (so easy to hear with distortion,...), then make slight offsets to compensate to tempered notes. But now we all have tuners, so I just use that mostly.

>>> 'Fret the 5th/4th string to tune the next string!'

For some players, this can make for a compounded error. Each string pair sounds fine, but if you tend to drift slightly sharp or flat as you tune each string in series, then you find that the E strings are not in tune.

Man, I know it is evil and lazy, but a good tuner just makes life so much easier. I think I'll go make instant coffee in the microwave,...

[jazzbow]

how about atmospheric pressure on your ear drums? Or a gluey cold in the inner ear?? That can have an effect!
Pass me the pitch pipes and watch me drool over me guitar........

[2bornot2bop]

The knobs pull off. Pull straight up - try not to get the knob tilted.

Avoid prying the knob off unless you really know what you are doing. Cracking the skirt of the knob and denting the top of the guitar are "classics".

I have what started as a bamboo back scratcher that is a perfect knob pryer, but really a straight pull is the smart way to go.

If needed, you can get the tips of your index and middle fingers (that's a total of four) under the skirt, evenly spaced around the knob, then sort of curl them to lift the knob. It hurts, remarkably - but it often works. And then you can say that you truly suffer for your guitar.

You can make or buy a dedicated knob puller, but this is really not needed for most occasional uses.

Thanks to NiAg for the previous posting of this information.

I acquired my first X-155 last week at Seattle's 20th annual guitar show. Price was on the high side @ $600 but the guitar was mint, like it had been untouched in the decade since it was produced, and it came with a new Martin style tweed case to boot. So I took the plunge not knowing anything about the guitar...like I needed another guitar to go w/ my 8 others.

First thing I did was bring it home, head for google and search for black knobs to remove the clear stock knobs that came w/ the guitar. I lucked out and found NOS DeArmond knobs in black on eBay. Placed an order and 3 days later they arrived. Checked google again for knob removal tips and sure enough this thread appeared.

The entire time I kept thinkin' of NiAg's remarks about "truly suffering for your guitar"...so 20 minutes and 6 sore fingers and 2 sore thumbs later I had the lame clear knobs replaced...what a difference the black knobs made to the appearance of the guitar. I've also ordered a Guild style pick guard that's only days from arriving.

These guitars, however inexpensive, are quality builds. They've much in common with another Korean build, a former D'Angelico EXL-1DP that I owned.

Highly recommended for a tone king of a guitar on a budget!