The function of the nut as applied to sound

[pauln]

Similar arguments have been going on in the HiFi world for decades. I guess the boutique cone feet look like the schematic symbol for diodes, so they must act to only allow vibration to pass one way and not the other, kind of like heat always moving from hotter to colder.
One guy shows his new turntable feet shaped like cones and describes how they "isolate" the turntable from vibration of the thing it's placed on. Another shows his exact same cone feet and describes how they "conduct" vibration out of the turntable into the thing it's placed on.

[Strat-itis]

This is an extremely odd one where there's actually a debate taking the PRS video seriously. Bruh, you can not in your right mind say Paul being a weirdo clinking around the nuts tells you anything. Ok, you can get a vague sense of the density and hardness, but the only way to know what tone it imparts is to try it..

[Strat-itis]

Human perception is not a reliable source of actual data.

You must be joking. All master builders in any field rely on their wisdom from data they've accumulated using their human perception. Human perception can be flawed, but not nearly as flawed as faulty logic based on zero real world empiricism. That's why you work at your model over a period of years to get a sense for what you think is true.

You could make a solid guitar from concrete or ‘tonewoods’ and it would sound the same.

No it doesn't, that's idiotic. It's an electrical-acoustic instrument, not a midi device. The resonant properties of the guitar shape the tone of the amplified sound. I've A/B'd many different materials and there's usually a change in tone, sometimes a drastic change.

[DawgBone]

This is an extremely odd one where there's actually a debate taking the PRS video seriously. Bruh, you can not in your right mind say Paul being a weirdo clinking around the nuts tells you anything. Ok, you can get a vague sense of the density and hardness, but the only way to know what tone it imparts is to try it..

I'm fairly certain they tried them all on guitar, not just bounced them on a table. Not sure why I wouldn't take a video from one of the biggest names in the guitar world at least somewhat seriously. *shrugs

[Strat-itis]

I didn't say that he didn't empirically test everything, I would assume he did. I'm saying the demonstration itself of clinking around nuts, that people in this thread are reacting to, isn't a viable procedure for determining any real results. And it isn't supposed to be posed as such, he even says so at 1:50.

[pauln]

The resonant properties of the guitar shape the tone of the amplified sound.

We probably agree on some things. Let's find out.

- just before when the string is released from the pick or finger the string lengths either side of the release and the string's neutral position form a very flat triangle with the neutral position as the base, and the two uneven string lengths each side of the release position as the sides

- just after the string is released the point of release becomes a growing segment of flat string, the leading edges of that flat segment make an angle to the nut and saddle; these string lengths outside the flat segment don't change until the leading edge of the tension release can reach them

- because the two outside lengths are not the same distance from their terminations (nut and saddle) it takes some time before the string knows how long is its sounding length; it has to know that in order to form a coherent structure of waves and nodes

- that time required to determine sounding length is chaotic, comprises the attack phase of the ADSR (attack, decay, sustain, release) profile; has a thump sound on hollow bodies, a plink sound on solid bodies)

- the string after attack peak only diminishes in vibration; this is obvious with a solid body, with hollow bodies the body cavity increases the matching of mechanical impedance of string to air (the strings of both solid and hollow are the same level of intrinsic vibration)

- neither solid nor hollow can positively add energy to the strings; they can only damp energy and do this harmonically to shape the resulting tone

- to the degree that forced energy into the body has resonance, it is those resonant frequencies that the body damps from the string; do you see why? Tapping sound wood and dropping nuts would indicate the frequencies that the substance would extract from the tone. Wood that taps a dark tone would be selected to brighten the instrument

- the effect on pickups has to be from an effect on the string, which may come from damping by whatever body. Since the signal is produced by relative motion of the magnet/coil and the string, some effect may be due to the body vibration moving the pickup relative to the string, which might be the only positive source of adding frequencies to the signal output (but not to the string).

As an aside, a while back I put a single ply pick guard on my Strat, much softer than the stiff three ply standards. Strat pickups mount to the pick guard rather than to the body... like three kids bouncing on a trampoline, I think it made more difference in tone, response, feel than anything, very pleased.

[Dave70]

you guys are NUTS

[jazzshrink]

you guys are NUTS

Hey, that's my line!

[Cunamara]

Resonant pieces of wood are generally superior, and boost sustain, because there is more resonating happening, and it will take longer to stop resonating than a less resonant piece of wood. Seems like a no-brainer. Take five of the same guitar off the shelf, one or two will be noticeably superior yet everything is the same specs-wise.

I was somewhat idly checking out different guitars at the local Guitar Center, particularly Fenders. I played a Squier Jazzmaster (J Mascis) and a few Strats. It was interesting noting that the "acoustic" resonance of each guitar was noticeably different. The Jazzmaster had a relatively huge neck and possibly was the most resonant of the half dozen or so; I could really feel the vibration of the guitar. One of the Strats had a lot of resonance as well; I think it was a Player II in the mid $800s with an alder body, rosewood board and a C neck. Standard SCs. It sounded far better in terms of the acoustic signature than all of the much more expensive Strats that I tried. Plugged in was much the same, although I didn't really get on with the Jazzmaster's pickups (which was odd, they looked like P90s and I usually like P90s a lot). Maybe it would take a bit more fiddling with knobs than I did. That one Strat was very nice, better than all the others. What I am slowly getting around to is that I have always felt that even with solid body guitars the resonance of the instrument has a significant effect on the final tone through an amp. It's the first thing I check. That might be why I've never found a Les Paul that I particularly liked; they just don't seem to resonate much even though I've heard a lot of great sounds with them.

Still thinking about that Strat even though I don't remotely need it. Dang GAS!

[Mick-7]

One of the Strats had a lot of resonance as well; I think it was a Player II in the mid $800s with an alder body, rosewood board and a C neck. Standard SCs. It sounded far better in terms of the acoustic signature than all of the much more expensive Strats that I tried.

That model is getting rave reviews, don't know what accounts for the resonance you mentioned:
Fender Player II Stratocaster Electric Guitar - Black | Guitar Center

[DawgBone]

I was somewhat idly checking out different guitars at the local Guitar Center, particularly Fenders. I played a Squier Jazzmaster (J Mascis) and a few Strats. It was interesting noting that the "acoustic" resonance of each guitar was noticeably different. The Jazzmaster had a relatively huge neck and possibly was the most resonant of the half dozen or so; I could really feel the vibration of the guitar. One of the Strats had a lot of resonance as well; I think it was a Player II in the mid $800s with an alder body, rosewood board and a C neck. Standard SCs. It sounded far better in terms of the acoustic signature than all of the much more expensive Strats that I tried. Plugged in was much the same, although I didn't really get on with the Jazzmaster's pickups (which was odd, they looked like P90s and I usually like P90s a lot). Maybe it would take a bit more fiddling with knobs than I did. That one Strat was very nice, better than all the others. What I am slowly getting around to is that I have always felt that even with solid body guitars the resonance of the instrument has a significant effect on the final tone through an amp. It's the first thing I check. That might be why I've never found a Les Paul that I particularly liked; they just don't seem to resonate much even though I've heard a lot of great sounds with them.

Still thinking about that Strat even though I don't remotely need it. Dang GAS!

Well....you can always sell one after you get the strat, lol. It can sometimes be tough to find a good, resonant strat that doesn't have other QC issues so if I had a want for a strat I'd grab it...

If a guitar looks interesting I just strum the strings while it's hanging. If it rings out good, I'll pull it down and give it a run through. If it still seems good I'll plug it into a decent amp. If it doesn't ring out it stays on the wall. I want the acoustically loud electric guitar.

I once found two natural epi casinos, identical, hanging side by side in a sam ash....I strummed one, virtually alive. I strummed the other, completely dead. That's when it dawned on me....no need to pull it down if it doesn't ring out. That's a dud. I 335 shopped that way last fall and got me a real winner. Wound up being the cheapest 335 in the store out of 4 or 5 Gibsons (other than an Epi). The Epi was a JB model and was more resonant than several of the 5k Gibsons.

Also seems as though it's often a guitar with a thicker neck that will be more resonant than those with slender necks. Not a hard and fast rule but has been my experience more often than not. Having played with some bolt on neck replacements for strats in the past I found that a neck that seems more resonant than the one it replaces will definitely improve the guitar. My test for body resonance on something solid like an LP or tele is a good knuckle knock into the center of the back. A sharp response=good. A dull thud=no bueno. I haven't figured out a good way to test neck resonance short of removing it from the body but you can still knock on it, lol.

[stevo58]

I use MOP on my banjos. It looks all nice and blingy, like a banjo should.

[skiboyny]

Still thinking about that Strat even though I don't remotely need it. Dang GAS!

Get it! It's really hard to find a nice strat with a neck that feels right.

[Jimmy Mack]

YES to bigger thicker necks in respect to this thread. I am tempted to use my Fender Electric XII as a six string also! It has a nice wide and full profile neck to accommodate the 12 strings, and the strings ring and ring.

[Spook410]

If you want real silliness go to an acoustic guitar forum and ask whether or not the bridge pins impact tone.

As for nuts, if the nut slot is tight enough for the string to be influenced by the material of the nut, the nut slot is too tight. Nuts have one job: manage to transition from neck to tuning pegs. As such, it is set up to direct the string without binding it. Bone is near perfect in availability, wear resistance, and file-ability. It's also lends itself to easy fixing of screw ups with bone dust (or baking soda for that matter) and a cyanoacrylate glue.

What you hear is never overly scientific. Which is why we can be in the same space with the same gear just to find ourselves adjusting EQ day to day. But sometimes people get a little carried away with what actually matters.

[joe2758]

If you want real silliness go to an acoustic guitar forum and ask whether or not the bridge pins impact tone.

there is no way...

[DawgBone]

If you want real silliness go to an acoustic guitar forum and ask whether or not the bridge pins impact tone.

As for nuts, if the nut slot is tight enough for the string to be influenced by the material of the nut, the nut slot is too tight. Nuts have one job: manage to transition from neck to tuning pegs. As such, it is set up to direct the string without binding it. Bone is near perfect in availability, wear resistance, and file-ability. It's also lends itself to easy fixing of screw ups with bone dust (or baking soda for that matter) and a cyanoacrylate glue.

What you hear is never overly scientific. Which is why we can be in the same space with the same gear just to find ourselves adjusting EQ day to day. But sometimes people get a little carried away with what actually matters.

Bridge pins def affect tone. I don't consider it silly at all. I've tried it first hand. Plastic vs ebony vs brass. It's actually a great way to enhance the voice of an acoustic, though obviously, like changing tuners, the effects are fairly subtle.