How Low Can You Go? (Guitar action)

[wolflen]

My Les Paul Classic and Ibanez super strat have been set up with "low as possible"

with 10/46 on both. I can get those wide stretch chords to ring true.

If the action is set at "factory spec" which to me is too high those chords do not ring true on the top notes.

Saying that..I have met players that have semi hollow 335s and similar types with fairly high action
and they can play with out any problems. It may come down to hand strength. I have never been that strong.

[kris]

When I have thin strings and low action on guitar, the fingers of my right hand at high tempos do not have proper control.
This is stressful when playing with fingers with short nails.
The left hand has no problem.

[GuyBoden]

When I have thin strings and low action on guitar, the fingers of my right hand at high tempos do not have proper control.
This is stressful when playing with fingers with short nails.
The left hand has no problem.

Thin gauge strings oscillate a lot more than larger gauge strings.

Also, that's why you can get a lower action with larger gauge strings without buzzing.

[darkwaters]

2.0mm and 1.4mm at the 12th fret for me on both acoustics and electrics with only the very slightest relief. Any lower and buzzing appears; any higher and my hand starts to ache.

[Jimmy blue note]

I did the set ups for Mick Goodrick. He was a fingerstyle player who played impossibly low and light. .009 with the amp turned up really loud.
I'd set up his guitar so it was so low that I'd get a buzz on every note, but he'd play it clean and tell me "Take it down". And it'd be beyond my ability to play and he still play it clean and say "lower". When I plugged it in, just picking it up would trigger chaos from the amp. Then he'd roll off the guitar. His philosophy was because he played fingerstyle he wanted all the control under his fingers and he could play as light as a breeze, and the rest was degree of nuance.
I never measured the action but I have NEVER set up another player's guitar that critically and unplayably low in my experience but whether he was playing the Ibanez, Steinberger, Klein or Hohner, that's what his fingers needed.
And it worked.

[kris]

I did the set ups for Mick Goodrick. He was a fingerstyle player who played impossibly low and light. .009 with the amp turned up really loud.
I'd set up his guitar so it was so low that I'd get a buzz on every note, but he'd play it clean and tell me "Take it down". And it'd be beyond my ability to play and he still play it clean and say "lower". When I plugged it in, just picking it up would trigger chaos from the amp. Then he'd roll off the guitar. His philosophy was because he played fingerstyle he wanted all the control under his fingers and he could play as light as a breeze, and the rest was degree of nuance.
I never measured the action but I have NEVER set up another player's guitar that critically and unplayably low in my experience but whether he was playing the Ibanez, Steinberger, Klein or Hohner, that's what his fingers needed.
And it worked.

I have a lot of Mick Goodrick recordings.
I have the impression that he played these strange guitars because they were easy to transport.

[Jimmy blue note]

I have a lot of Mick Goodrick recordings.
I have the impression that he played these strange guitars because they were easy to transport.

Yup, He went headless for the soul reason that he could throw it in the overhead with his over night bag and never check his luggage. He figured the instrument is the conduit and he was the player. So his favourite guitar was a humble Hohner. No prestige. Just fine for making good music. I set them up so his guitars were no obstacle to ideas. What else would you ask for?

[deacon Mark]

Yup, He went headless for the soul reason that he could throw it in the overhead with his over night bag and never check his luggage. He figured the instrument is the conduit and he was the player. So his favourite guitar was a humble Hohner. No prestige. Just fine for making good music. I set them up so his guitars were no obstacle to ideas. What else would you ask for?

This probably confirms for me why I never carried at all for the tone he got on the guitar. His lines are fine and his sense of swing and time is wonderful, but his sound does lack that other sense of dimension. It gets worse as he plays faster because not bounce of the strings by themselves and the pick. For me it that essentially completely dial electric tone. Wow glad you posted this is helps. For the record Mick is a great player but it shows to me how our sound captures others or does not.

[Jimmy blue note]

This probably confirms for me why I never carried at all for the tone he got on the guitar. His lines are fine and his sense of swing and time is wonderful, but his sound does lack that other sense of dimension. It gets worse as he plays faster because not bounce of the strings by themselves and the pick. For me it that essentially completely dial electric tone. Wow glad you posted this is helps. For the record Mick is a great player but it shows to me how our sound captures others or does not.

There was an impossible fluid legato I could never even approach, but it inspired me.
I played duo with him and I played an archtop with a markedly higher action. The sounds were complementary.
Listen to his sound with Fred Hersch. Almost attackless. Legato and fingerstyle attack.

[deacon Mark]

There was an impossible fluid legato I could never even approach, but it inspired me.
I played duo with him and I played an archtop with a markedly higher action. The sounds were complementary.
Listen to his sound with Fred Hersch. Almost attackless. Legato and fingerstyle attack.

I listened to this and since we are in a dedicated jazz group my thoughts and not to be taken as criticism of the players ability. This was ok but I would listen to it once and never really return to listen again. It is not bad or ever remotely a bad recording. To me it is a sound much as one might poke at a keyboard or legato as you said. I want the note to pop out more and I also want to hear real swing. I guess that is another issue no real sense of swing.

If the action were higher the player, then to me has another dimension to control the sound and tension of the notes. To me the greatest example of this really comes from Wes. I have been listening to Wes for 45 years and recently in the past 3 years went back to him for study and sense of playing bebop. I have listen to Bésame Mucho at least 50 times in the past few months. It never gets old Wes holds your attention even when you know what he is going to play. It is the same way with early Joe Pass he just has sound all over the place. Barney Kessel is the same way although Barney could get downright sloppy at times and sometimes his flurry right hand is not the best. Barney though could set a mood and make the guitar sound like a miniature orchestra. That requires some action and frankly light strings will make it harder too. None of this implies though that the action has to be high and hard to play, that is a big difference.

[Jimmy blue note]

I guess that is another issue no real sense of swing.
.

Swing has been something that is an evolutionary concept, feel and relationship to the beat.
Personally I see a continuum from Bix Beiderbeck, Armstrong (by the way I know some people made the same accusation of Frankie Trumbauer... or even Lester Young that they didn't swing like Armstrong). There are those that say that because Cecil Taylor doesn't chunka chunka, that he doesn't swing. There are many who think because Bill Evans drew from another sphere than Art Tatum, he didn't swing. I've also heard people say they can't stand Monk because he didn't swing. For many Swing is the filter that separates US from THEM and for some it's not a permeable membrane. That's cool, different strokes...
We all have the feel that makes us swing inside.
I happen to think that Joe Henderson opened up a feel of movement that was alien to Coleman Hawkins or Ben Webster.
I also happen to think that for those that understand the statement of content put on the context of the beat, a sense of swing can be felt and manifest in different ways.

I learned a lot from (sax player) Jerry Bergonzi and the most important thing I got from him was the idea that swing is a reflection of the times it's a part of. I do hear a compelling feeling of movement in phrasing, of melodic convergence with tonality, of SWING in the modern players... Keith Jarrett, Fred Hersch, Brad Meldhau, Mick Goodrick, Allan Holdsworth.
But there was a time when I thought if it didn't sound like Wes, it wasn't swinging.
Evolution for me is also applicable to my own sensibilities.

Maybe it's a shortcoming of language, but the same sense of swing I hear in Bukka White IS the same compelling movement I hear and feel in Mick and Sco.
There are things I don't like, but I give them the respect of swinging if it moves, and moves something in me.

To all, our preferences go hand in hand with our prejudices, but for many the sense of the evolving and advancing guitar includes the joy of revelation.

[Christian Miller]

Right that’s it I’m adopting ‘chunka chunka’ and I’m sticking it on a t shirt.


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[Christian Miller]

Swing has been something that is an evolutionary concept, feel and relationship to the beat.
Personally I see a continuum from Bix Beiderbeck, Armstrong (by the way I know some people made the same accusation of Frankie Trumbauer... or even Lester Young that they didn't swing like Armstrong). There are those that say that because Cecil Taylor doesn't chunka chunka, that he doesn't swing. There are many who think because Bill Evans drew from another sphere than Art Tatum, he didn't swing. I've also heard people say they can't stand Monk because he didn't swing. For many Swing is the filter that separates US from THEM and for some it's not a permeable membrane. That's cool, different strokes...
We all have the feel that makes us swing inside.
I happen to think that Joe Henderson opened up a feel of movement that was alien to Coleman Hawkins or Ben Webster.
I also happen to think that for those that understand the statement of content put on the context of the beat, a sense of swing can be felt and manifest in different ways.

I learned a lot from (sax player) Jerry Bergonzi and the most important thing I got from him was the idea that swing is a reflection of the times it's a part of. I do hear a compelling feeling of movement in phrasing, of melodic convergence with tonality, of SWING in the modern players... Keith Jarrett, Fred Hersch, Brad Meldhau, Mick Goodrick, Allan Holdsworth.
But there was a time when I thought if it didn't sound like Wes, it wasn't swinging.
Evolution for me is also applicable to my own sensibilities.

Maybe it's a shortcoming of language, but the same sense of swing I hear in Bukka White IS the same compelling movement I hear and feel in Mick and Sco.
There are things I don't like, but I give them the respect of swinging if it moves, and moves something in me.

To all, our preferences go hand in hand with our prejudices, but for many the sense of the evolving and advancing guitar includes the joy of revelation.

Yeah I find it hard to take seriously value judgments that boil down to ‘this music doesn’t sound/feel like this other music.’

So what? I like different kinds of music.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kris]

John Abercrombie -He also played fingerstyle on the low action electric guitar.
He had a period when he played with pick but then switched to fingerstyle.