Perception of Sound vs Reality

[Hep To The Jive]

What I've learned is that if the guitar sounds great when you play it at home doesn't mean it will sound great in a band mix. I started to really appareciate a guitar+pickups combination that cuts through the mix in a full band setting. I don't care if it's cliche, it true. The amp is not important, sometimes I don't even have one, just go direct, but the properly setup guitar is.

Especially if we are talking the 'jazz tone', it really works well in small groups, but gets pretty much lost once you add keys and horns to the band. Your experience may vary of course.

[AllanAllen]

What I've learned is that if the guitar sounds great when you play it at home doesn't mean it will sound great in a band mix. I started to really appareciate a guitar+pickups combination that cuts through the mix in a full band setting. I don't care if it's cliche, it true. The amp is not important, sometimes I don't even have one, just go direct, but the properly setup guitar is.

Especially if we are talking the 'jazz tone', it really works well in small groups, but gets pretty much lost once you add keys and horns to the band. Your experience may vary of course.

Yeah, what people think Jimmy Page sounded like vs what he actually sounds like is incredible. That one always sticks out to me because Zeppelin is not AC/DC even though they both have a wall of Marshall’s.

[Spook410]

And yet every member of a symphonic orchestra plays the very best instrument they can afford and work a lifetime to achieve the best possible tone.

Not everyone wants or needs the beautiful sound of a good archtop through a wonderful amp. I feel fortunate that I enjoy both.

[pamosmusic]

And yet every member of a symphonic orchestra plays the very best instrument they can afford and work a lifetime to achieve the best possible tone

That part feels important.

And those horn players.. Best possible instrument, mouthpiece, and hard work to achieve best possible tone.

There it is again.

Classical guitar players, flat top players (bluegrass, fingerstyle, et al), gypsy jazz.. best possible instrument, hard work on tone.

And again.

And then there's the jazz players with the 'gear doesn't matter'. I've heard live recordings around here from some of the folks who say tone doesn't matter.. just re-enforces the notion that it really does.

I don’t recall saying that the gear doesn’t matter. In fact, I play a fancy guitar. Just that technique matters more. Hard to say that you’re really disagreeing with that bit.

What I was disagreeing with was the suggestion that one should get gear to accommodate their technique rather than have a technique that is kind of impervious to gear. I’m assuming you’d rephrase to say that a person should buy things that they sound good on rather than getting something they think is top quality and trying to tailor how they play to the instrument they think they should have.

In which case, sure. But the arguments getting a little silly now.

Not everyone wants or needs the beautiful sound of a good archtop through a wonderful amp. But if you're going to play a tele through a shoe box with the treble rolled all the way down be aware that it could sound better.

As for this bit, sure. But one could just as easily say that If a casual player is going to play a boutique archtop through a boutique amp, they could probably put in some extra time and sound a lot better for a lot less.

And for what it’s worth the suggested superiority of the “beautiful” archtop to the “tele through a shoebox” is another thing I thought was beat to death a few hundred threads ago. (For what it’s worth my fancy guitar is a fancy tele)

So again. Big shrug.

[rpjazzguitar]

Years ago, when I started using Golden Gate mandolin picks, I tried to give a few away to two pro players I knew.

They wouldn't even accept them for free. Not even to try them out. Well, one relented. The other said, "I use these" and showed me his pick.

The point is that good players have strong opinions about every piece of gear. Not that they're necessarily satisfied with what they're using. The great players I know mostly, not entirely, keep experimenting to try to get some incremental improvement.

Horn players seem worse. You can have a sax section with 200 years of combined experience and it seems like nobody has ever liked a mouthpiece.

The point of my OP was that a possibly overlooked variable is time. As in, an hour ago this sounded bad and now it sounds good.

It was already hard enough to figure out how something is going to sound in different situations, e.g. which band, which room, which setup, which song, background noise, etc etc etc.

So, I guess what I'm searching for is lightweight, inexpensive, great sounding, sufficiently powerful and sonically very flexible, so that I can tune it to my various situations (no, you can't get them all). And, to figure it out I have to deal with the time variable. It's challenging and potentially frustrating.

[Spook410]

So again. Big shrug.

Jeez.. thanks for posting a long bit that I had immediately deleted because it was boring.

And.. you should not choose gear based on how you play? Because.. gear independence? Makes me think of 'Back to the Future'.. "because where we're going.. we don't need.. gear". Umm.. yea.. sure... OK. Too cool for school and all.

So.. a big shrug on the available commentary.. that part I do agree with.

[Spook410]

..

Horn players seem worse. You can have a sax section with 200 years of combined experience and it seems like nobody has ever liked a mouthpiece.

I started on saxophone and still play. Guitar players just don't understand about mouthpieces..

[pamosmusic]

Jeez.. thanks for posting a long bit that I had immediately deleted because it was boring.

And.. you should not choose gear based on how you play? Because.. gear independence? Makes me think of 'Back to the Future'.. "because where we're going.. we don't need.. gear". Umm.. yea.. sure... OK. Too cool for school and all.

So.. a big shrug on the available commentary.. that part I do agree with.

Who are you arguing with at this point?

[Spook410]

Who are you arguing with at this point?

I'm arguing (an unfortunately accurate term..) with you. Over your premise that it's not important to pick gear based on how you play and how you want to sound. That the complete jazz guitarist will evolve past gear. That and your insistence that gear is a distant consideration and not particularly important. I believe that bad tone sucks and diminishes music. Gear is important. Not to mention being a fun part of the hobby.

Still.. because it's stupid to argue on internet and certainly in this forum.. I will give you the last word so you can say that's not what you said or how I misunderstand followed by some dismissive statement to show your disregard for the topic and poster. I mean.. at least your consistent.

[pamosmusic]

I'm arguing (an unfortunately accurate term..) with you. Over your premise that it's not important to pick gear based on how you play and how you want to sound. That the complete jazz guitarist will evolve past gear. That and your insistence that gear is a distant consideration and not particularly important. I believe that bad tone sucks and diminishes music. Gear is important. Not to mention being a fun part of the hobby.

Still.. because it's stupid to argue on internet and certainly in this forum.. I will give you the last word so you can say that's not what you said or how I misunderstand followed by some dismissive statement to show your disregard for the topic and poster. I mean.. at least your consistent.

Alrighty. Well, maybe I’ll steer into the skid this time and proceed as though you're representing me accurately here.

If you can be dismissive of people playing “teles through shoeboxes” or imagine that those people think “tone doesn’t matter” because gear isn’t the first thing they think to change when they don’t like their sound (or honestly maybe they can’t afford for it to be) — you shouldn’t be so surprised when those people kind of poke you back.

Of course gear is important. Everything a musician puts between their fingers and the ears of the listener matters and folks should put the right stuff there. But a less than ideal assortment of stuff also shouldn’t be able to keep music from reaching the listener.

[AllanAllen]

I think there is a bar where gear becomes less important than everything else.

That bar is currently very low with options from Epiphone, Ibanez, Eastman pair those with a quilter or Fender amp. If you can’t get a workable sound from that, it’s not the gear.

It’s a far cry from the Hondos and gorilla amps I learned to play on, that are the same price point after adjusting for time.

[Hep To The Jive]

Bad or poorly maintained gear can sabbotage your playing for sure. It would feel like you fighting the guitar instead of playing and enjoying it. I've been there lol.

That said a well setup tele with the right pickups is all I need. Sometimes I need an archtop but mostly for aesthetic reasons, otherwise it's kinda a luxury at this point. Tele through shoebox now we talking!

[Oscar67]

I sometimes quit playing for the night and think the sound was about as good as it could be. The next day I turn on the amp and it sounds terrible. Absolutely nothing has been changed, except my perception of tone.

+1. This is the bane of my existence.

[Christian Miller]

Tbf most of us play cheap instruments compared to working classical players.

Otoh I’m not going to hold back the tide of players shopping for tone lol.

Tbh I think it’s more important to know how to use your gear. There’s situations where a Squier tele is going to sound better than a Benedetto. Given I spent the whole of yesterday’s gig playing my Tele on the bridge pick up through the house fender twin (yes the real thing with tubes) … sometimes the room says no. Im not sure what that counts as lol


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[Hep To The Jive]

Tbf most of us play cheap instruments compared to working classical players.

Otoh I’m not going to hold back the tide of players shopping for tone lol.

Tbh I think it’s more important to know how to use your gear. There’s situations where a Squier tele is going to sound better than a Benedetto. Given I spent the whole of yesterday’s gig playing my Tele on the bridge pick up through the house fender twin (yes the real thing with tubes) … sometimes the room says no. Im not sure what that counts as lol


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I play a lot of times using the tele bridge pickup, there is no shame in it. That's why I don't get the 'jazz tele' thing, the neck pup only. Certainly doesn't help if you're working and trying to minimize your gear.

[Christian Miller]

I play a lot of times using the tele bridge pickup, there is no shame in it. That's why I don't get the 'jazz tele' thing, the neck pup only. Certainly doesn't help if you're working and trying to minimize your gear.

Yes I like it very much for certain things, rather less for others. I think my neck is a bit nondescript on that guitar, like it in the practice room, less on stage.

The tone control is very powerful on that pickup as well. You can get a lot of sounds.


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[pamosmusic]

Yeah mine has two humbuckers. So it’s not a REAL tele

[Stringswinger]

Yeah mine has two humbuckers. So it’s not a REAL tele

Says who? Fender has made many HH Telecasters over the years. And they still do, last I checked.

I guess to the jazz police/Fender police crowd a HH Telecaster may not be "real" but who gives a rodent's rectum what those fools think? I sure don't.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah mine has two humbuckers. So it’s not a REAL tele

You are bad and you should feel bad.

[pamosmusic]

Says who? Fender has made many HH Telecasters over the years. And they still do, last I checked.

I guess to the jazz police/Fender police crowd a HH Telecaster may not be "real" but who gives a rodent's rectum what those fools think? I sure don't.

I was hoping the sarcasm would’ve come off

You are bad and you should feel bad

whew … I think

[bluejaybill]

I think there is a bar where gear becomes less important than everything else.

I agree- and I've played in that bar many times!

[bluejaybill]

Says who? Fender has made many HH Telecasters over the years. And they still do, last I checked.

I guess to the jazz police/Fender police crowd a HH Telecaster may not be "real" but who gives a rodent's rectum what those fools think? I sure don't.

Wow, that's quite a retort there! I reckon you really put those evil folks in their place!

Why, just last night those guys were chasing me down the street!

Seriously now, is that even really a thing? Jazz police/Fender police? There are many other police I'd be looking out for first. YMMV etc

[Cunamara]

Julian Lage played an entire tour using only the bridge pickup on his Tele. It can be done. Not sure I'd like to do it...

So tonight... ES-175 was unsatisfactory. Cushman archtop was unsatisfactory. Tele was ok, Strat was not. My GB10, bingo. Yesterday it was the Tele and the day before it was the Strat. Tomorrow I probably won't be satisfied with the GB10 and it'll be one of the other ones...

I'd be better off with one guitar and one amp. More time developing my ability to play jazz, less time faffing around.

[Stringswinger]

Seriously now, is that even really a thing? Jazz police/Fender police? There are many other police I'd be looking out for first. YMMV etc

Clearly you have not spent much time on the various Facebook groups regarding jazz and/or Fender guitars or you would know that purity tests have permeated our modern life by people who seem to have too much time on their hands.

[Hep To The Jive]

Clearly you have not spent much time on the various Facebook groups regarding jazz and/or Fender guitars or you would know that purity tests have permeated our modern life by people who seem to have too much time on their hands.

True, even on this very forum I've read something like tele is only tele when in orginal pickup configuration, otherwise it's just a ''tele shaped object''. Wow, it stuck in my mind haha.