Seeming correlation between string length and tension

[Peter C]

I just happened to notice that if you check out the relative string tension values in a popular set like the D'Addario 12-52 roundwounds (EJ21, wound G), they bear an uncanny resemblance to the relative saddle intonations. Probably a coincidence, but curious nonetheless.

Tensions kg: 9.6 - 11.6 - 12.5 - 12.7 - 10.5 - 10.6

[deacon Mark]

My 2003 L5c came with a ABR 1 tunomatic. I made this ebony saddle, and it is the type of compensation I use for most all jazz guitars with wound 3rds that I work on. Frankly it works fine also with an unwound 3rd too. It is not the typical shorted length at the 3rd string but a gradually compensation. I have never had any real trouble with intonation.

Some players with strobe tuners use their eyes and not their ears. I can hear 3 cents but in the end 3 cents is usually fine depending on where you spend your time on the guitar playing. Many set intonation at the 12th fret and think that is the end to be all end. It is not in the slightest because regardless the guitar will not be in tune everywhere. If you spend most of your time like I happen to between frets 2-3 and frets 12-15 on the high E, intonation set at the 12th fret octave will not be as accurate as setting it from 3-14 or frets 5-16.

The late great Johnny Smith always intonated his guitars by the harmonic at the 17th fret. He always used a wooded bridge and played deadly accurate in tune with all those close voice chords he used up the neck.

[marcwhy]

Check out Ralph Novak's lecture.

[Peter C]

The post wasn't about any kind of dogma (is that a boomer thing?) and the truth is that my dreadnought has been quite happy with a straight saddle for decades, whether with 11s or 14s in different tunings etc. On the other hand, my Strat definitely needs individual saddle adjustment to intonate a plain G; it sounds crap otherwise. I've never put a plain G on my archtop but, anyway, I noticed that the saddle adjustment "patterns" I arrived at on these two guitars are not too far from those shown in the grapic, which is actually from this site, by the way. All by ear - can't say I care much about strobe tuners.

I briefly searched for the words "saddle/intonation" in the Novak article but nothing came up.

[sgosnell]

A stringed instrument will never be completely in tune everywhere. It's not possible. That's why equal temperament is used. It was first used for tuning pianos, AFAIK. I tune to the 5th fret (which is the same as the 17th, from the other end) because that's the closest to the area where I play most often. There is usually a very slight difference between the open string and one fretted at the 5th. I do use a strobe tuner because it's the most accurate way to do it, and it uses equal temperament which helps keep tuning close enough everywhere on the neck. Never perfect, but close enough. Perfection everywhere is just not possible.

[John A.]

I think it's just coincidence that the diagrams almost look similar, drawn from a very small sample. A more rigorous study might prove otherwise, but I wouldn't read anything into this.

[Peter C]

Yeah, as I said, most likely just a coincidence, and I know enough engineers to ask their opinion on the matter, but probably won't, LOL.

That thing in most wound G string sets where you (or at least I) feel a gradual step-up in tension from low E to G, then a sudden drop down to the B and top E, is something I've become used to over the years and, much as I appreciate their quality, Thomastik Swings and Bebops with their even tension initially feel weird. That said, I do often put D'Addario "balanced tension" 11s on my Strat, but mostly because it has beefier plains than the regular set.

By the way, has anyone here tried the Ibanez 11-50 flatwounds?

As regards tuning, FWIW, I tune at the 5th fret, 7th fret, 12 fret harmonic, play a few wide-voiced chords, maybe tweak the tuning again....then forget about it.

[sgosnell]

That thing in most wound G string sets where you (or at least I) feel a gradual step-up in tension from low E to G, then a sudden drop down to the B and top E, is something I've become used to over the years and, much as I appreciate their quality, Thomastik Swings and Bebops with their even tension initially feel weird.

That's not unexpected, if you look at the specified tensions of the strings of most sets. The D and G strings almost always have the highest tension, and the E strings the lowest. I don't know why string manufacturers configure their sets that way, but most do.

[John A.]

Yeah, as I said, most likely just a coincidence, and I know enough engineers to ask their opinion on the matter, but probably won't, LOL.

That thing in most wound G string sets where you (or at least I) feel a gradual step-up in tension from low E to G, then a sudden drop down to the B and top E, is something I've become used to over the years and, much as I appreciate their quality, Thomastik Swings and Bebops with their even tension initially feel weird. That said, I do often put D'Addario "balanced tension" 11s on my Strat, but mostly because it has beefier plains than the regular set.

I have 13-53 TI Swings on my my archtop. I don't notice the increase in tension you refer to. On paper I realize it's there, but it's not something I'm conscious of while playing. I was using Chromes 12-52 with a 13 on top instead of the 12, which is close-ish in tension on paper to the TI 12-53 set, and that set feels noticeably stiffer to me overall, but I don't recall the transition from G to E/B specifically feeling weird.

[Peter C]

Hi John, no you should't feel that with TIs precisely for the reason I mentioned previously.

I also like Chrome 12s with a 13 on top if I have a spare one. The tensions in the standard set from low to high E go thus (kg): 10.7, 12.9, 13.7, 15.4, 10.5, 10.6

As you can see, the G is about 50% up on tension compared to the low E and B, for example. I certainly feel it, but I'm used to it now. I remember the first time I put 12s on my "LP" after years of playing 11s with a (.018) plain G and thinking, "this is going to change the way I approach the instrument", and I've never looked back since.

[John A.]

Hi John, no you should't feel that with TIs precisely for the reason I mentioned previously.

I also like Chrome 12s with a 13 on top if I have a spare one. The tensions in the standard set from low to high E go thus (kg): 10.7, 12.9, 13.7, 15.4, 10.5, 10.6

As you can see, the G is about 50% up on tension compared to the low E and B, for example. I certainly feel it, but I'm used to it now. I remember the first time I put 12s on my "LP" after years of playing 11s with a (.018) plain G and thinking, "this is going to change the way I approach the instrument", and I've never looked back since.

Understood. What I meant to express is that the larger difference between G and B in the Chromes set doesn't jump out at me vs the smaller difference in the TI set, but the overall difference in feel does (due, I think, to differences in how the strings are made).