Eastman AR805CE loud enough for acoustic jams?

[MMarc]

Hello,

I'm considering buying an eastman ar805 ce and play it mostly acoustic, even in little band.

Would you consider it loud enough to be played unplugged with a doublebass, acoustic gipsy guitar and sax ? Maybe also with a 'soft' jazz drummer and piano ?

(English is not my language)

Thanks for your help.

And congratulations for making such a wonderfull forum alive, with great quality of the posts.

[RJVB]

It would probably be about as loud as the other guitar, when played with the same kind of technique so you can probably answer the question yourself.

Keep in mind that 2 guitars aren't twice as loud as 1 guitar

[garybaldy]

I would think with a sax, drummer and piano you would need amplification. Those guys may be sympathetic to start with but their increasing enthusiasm would make it difficult for you.
Best to have amplification and if you don't need it - great.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I think it depends on what kind of music you’re playing and whether you’re playing leads or rhythm. My 810 is not loud enough with nickel flats (JS113) to cut through bass and a strong gypsy strummer on a decent guitar. I’m sure you’ll use RW acoustic strings, which will add both volume and bite over flatwounds. But you’ll need to hit pretty hard to be heard playing melody unmic’ed and unamplified over a smokin’ gypsy rhythm section.

If you’re playing quiet jazz in a restaurant, you should be fine with a strong touch on the right strings and a setup on the high side.

[MMarc]

Thanks,

Which round strings should be nice with eastman AR 805 or 810 to cut thru the mix ?

I already have an ibanez GB10 with flat, and I would like another jazzbox but more acoustic, and with rounds.

I hesitate between eastman AR 810 and 805, and I have read they have similar acoustic volume despite 16"" vs 17", 810 being thinner than 805. A 810 is louder ou similar ?

[MMarc]

It would probably be about as loud as the other guitar

My experience is that all guitar don't have similar acoustic volume. By far.

[nyc chaz]

Having played an 805, my answer would be that it would not be loud enough.That being said, every guitar is an individual.I own an ar910 and it is much louder than one that is owned by my friend.You might want to try Newtone Archtop strings or Thomastik Bebops for roundwound strings.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Thanks,

Which round strings should be nice with eastman AR 805 or 810 to cut thru the mix ?

I already have au ibanez GB10 with flat, and I would like another jazzbox but more acoustic, and with round.

I hesitate between eastman AR 810 and 805, and I have read they hase similar acoustic volume despite 16"" vs 17", 810 being thiner than 805. A 810 is louder ou similar ?

The 805 is 1/8" deeper than the 810. This by itself is not a consideration. I've only played an 805 once, in a shop - so I can't compare its loudness to that of my 810. Many smaller body achtops have a bit more prominent mid and upper midrange than larger ones, which helps them cut through a band, especially when comping. I had an L-50 that was amazing in this regard and projected as well as or better than most 17" bodies I've played. This is not as significant for single string lead, though. I'm assuming your bass player is using an upright without amplification, and there is no drummer. You might be OK with an unamplified 805 in that setting. You can always add a pickup and a small amp if you need it. The 805 is a wonderful guitar.

I have both 16" and 17" carved Eastman archtops. My 810 is louder acoustically than my 16" Jazz Elite (which is about 2 5/8" deep), and the acoustic tone is a bit bigger and warmer. But the Jazz Elite has heavier parallel bracing under a set pickup. Used acoustically in a band, I suspect the 805 would be a bit louder than the 810 for comping. I'd set it up with heavy strings and the highest action you can handle comfortably. I know many claim that lighter strings are just as loud as heavy ones, if you set the action and relief high enough that they don't buzz. But I was amazed at how a set of 14-55 Bensons woke up my Ibanez AF207 compared to the JS113s I'd been using. You have to find strings that stimulte the top maximally before they exert so much pressure on the top that they begin to damp it. Your touch will also affect this. I don't know of any way to determine that except trial and error. This obviously means setting up the guitar multiple times, and it may even mean having to cut a second nut. But the effort is worth it.

As for strings, I think you'll need to use round wounds for best power and projection. I've been using flats since I got my first archtop 60 years ago (a 175), so I've never gigged with round wounds on an archtop except that L-50 (that I sold about 30 years ago). As a result, I have no recommendations. There are so many options that you'll have to try some based on recommendations from those who use them.

[Christian Miller]

On problem with this type of guitar is that strings that are suited to acoustic playing - 80/20 bronzes etc - are not going to work well with the pickup in the guitar.

You can get pickups that are balanced for acoustic strings and retrofit to the guitar of course.

I don't think anyone plays acoustic jazz guitar seriously on flat wound strings. These strings post date the electric guitar era and are only suitable for electric guitar really. There's some people who pop up on these threads and say they prefer them, but I doubt they're playing acoustic band gigs and may be reporting on their perceptions playing solo. TBH there aren't many who do, and those that do seem to end up playing old Gibson L7's and Epiphones.

My impression of Eastmans in general is that by and large they have a really strong acoustic voice, but it's quite 'flat top'-ish. My perception is that my Loar LH600 is more strident and cutting. I do play that guitar acoustic. It sounds like this.

OTOH, they have... quirks

[Christian Miller]

I'm assuming your bass player is using an upright without amplification, and there is no drummer..

NB Drums are a can of worms. It is entirely possible to play an acoustic guitar with drums. All you need is a player who is well versed in vintage styles of drumming and has an old school kit with hide heads and small cymbals, temple blocks etc.

I know I think two people in London (a city of almost 9 million people) who do this.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

On problem with this type of guitar is that strings that are suited to acoustic playing - 80/20 bronzes etc - are not going to work well with the pickup in the guitar.

Whoops! I was thinking of the 805, which is a noncutaway acoustic. I think that might be up to the job with the right strings and setup, if the music is truly quiet. I didn't recall the "CE" in the thread title, so I ignored the cutaway 805. That one currently has a set pickup, and I don't think it will sound as good or be as loud acoustically as the noncut acoustic 805. My bad.

The 810CE will sound at least as big as the 805CE, and is probably a better bet if you're playing it acoustically. But the current 810CEs also have set pickups. Mine came with a floater and is better acoustically than any I've tried with a set P/U. It may be worth trying to find a used 810 with a floater.

[Spook410]

It will not be loud enough.

Gypsy jazz guitars get volume from high actions and hard string attacks. That allows them to keep up with other guitars, violin, and acoustic bass. But only if the other musicians know how to whisper and be part of an ensemble..

Pre-amplification jazz guitars, often with an 18" bout, had high actions with heavy strings and were limited to a percussive rhythm in their participation in dance bands.

No guitar, not even louder ones, will keep up with saxphones, pianos, and most certainly, drums as a melodic instrument playing jazz tunes. Maybe if your role is only percussive rhythm. Raise your action and go with .013 phosphor bronze strings and you can make the rhythm section sound pretty good.

[SoftwareGuy]

On one hand, I agree that the sax, piano, and drums could be so loud that they would drown you out. However your question says "acoustic jam". So I assume that means there is no venue/audience. You are just in some rehearsal space. So maybe you could be okay.
If you are playing in front of people you could have trouble being heard.

[Christian Miller]

It will not be loud enough.

Gypsy jazz guitars get volume from high actions and hard string attacks. That allows them to keep up with other guitars, violin, and acoustic bass. But only if the other musicians know how to whisper and be part of an ensemble..

Pre-amplification jazz guitars, often with an 18" bout, had high actions with heavy strings and were limited to a percussive rhythm in their participation in dance bands.

No guitar, not even louder ones, will keep up with saxphones, pianos, and most certainly, drums as a melodic instrument playing jazz tunes. Maybe if your role is only percussive rhythm. Raise your action and go with .013 phosphor bronze strings and you can make the rhythm section sound pretty good.

Well there is the video I posted above of me playing a gig with Sousaphone and Trumpet lol. That’s on gauge .12 strings.

Sax would be fine. Drums, see above. Mostly no. It’s an EQ issue.

Bear in mind when the horns are going at it it’s not so important to hear the guitar than it is for a vocal, or a solo, or obviously for your solos. Sometimes horn players find it hard if they are used to banjo because they are used to the support and want it to be loud. Obviously this won’t happen with an acoustic guitar. But that certainly doesn’t mean it can’t work, or that the ensemble can’t balance.

As someone who had done this quite a bit - the biggest issue playing acoustic is actually audience - if you have a talky audience you have no chance, because conversation has the same frequency peak as the guitar (upper mid). You’ll notice in the video above the audience is very quiet, respectful.

The acoustic is also very important of course. That place has a load of wood panelling - very nice. There’s a bandstand near me with an old school acoustic shell for music, and that’s an absolute revelation - it focuses the music outward to the audience and also gives quite a bit of ‘foldback’ to the players.

The actual guitar I’m playing is less important than all of that. Tbh my nylon string would do the gig if those conditions are right.

Another important aspect for lead playing is probably need to play a rest stroke technique to get the most power out of these guitars - most players used this before the electric era - George Van Eps talks about it in his book. Nowadays people associate it with Django, but i think it was very much the standard for pre war single note playing (and persisted into the electric era.) if you plan to do this it’s important to learn to balance lead and rhythm dynamics.

Tbh on most horn gigs it goes more towards chord solos. It feels right to play louder on those things.

Anyway i have owned a decently loud Maccaferri type guitar and the Loar LH600 and I would say both project about the same. The archtop guitar is less cutting for lead lines, but I think it sounds warmer than the GJ guitar I had, which I got a bit tired of tbh. It’s a machine for chord solos.

GJ guitars have lighter strings and are generally a bit easier to play I would say.

The Eastman is about the same volume wise but I would say has less upper mid range.

You also have less foldback on an f hole guitar than you might get with a D hole GJ guitar, say, because physics. If you have someone else play your guitars and stand back you may be surprised. The less you hear, the more the audience hears sometimes.

Your ability to play with guitar or piano will depend on the other player’s ability to play dynamics.

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[Christian Miller]

Here I am playing with drums btw. Matt is really good at not treading on my toes here. Snare and rhythm guitar blend really well. I think the Loar would have worked better here tbh.

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[KirkP]

I’ve played in similar ensembles with an AR810CE with a floating pickup. It would probably be fine for chunking chords, but for melodic soloing I always plugged in. Current AR810CE and AR805CE models have set pickups, so probably have even less unplugged volume.

[Spook410]

Well there is the video I posted above of me playing a gig with Sousaphone and Trumpet lol.

If the OP had asked 'will my Eastman work melodically in an acoustic setting with just an acoustic bass..', I would say sure. It would be like playing with a sousaphone while others are silent.

As for the other clip, you're right about the drummer being civilized. Of course, he's focused on a snare with brushes which might limit his enthusiasm. But such a good ensemble player. Still a bit hard to hear the guitar in spite of leading with multi-string puncuations which, like a percussive rhythm, cuts though a lot better than single string melodic. Realize it wouldn't be right for the group but a little bit of guitar amplification would have elevated the guitars role and would have been a nice counterpoint to the clarinet and violin.

In any case I'm envious of the musicians you get to play with. In my world, when the other players stop singing or soloing, they play rhythm twice as loud to fill the void. And if the OP is dealing with piano, bass, drums, and horns and he wants to play melodic solos, that is going to call for amplification.

[MMarc]

Thanks very much for all your advices.

So probably an eastman AR810ce or 805ce won't be loud enough tu play it acoustly in little gigs. Maybe could be nice for rythm guitar, but not for chorusing.

I will go to those gigs with my ibanez GB10 and a 4 kg jazz combo (I go by feet, no car).

And maybe I will still consider buying an eastman archtop, and play it acoustic only for home practise, quiet jam with another acoustic guitarist ou with an doublebass.

I am very pleased with receiving so much answers to my quest, and the high quality of your explanations, and videos examples.

[MMarc]

In any case I'm envious of the musicians you get to play with.

[Christian Miller]

If the OP had asked 'will my Eastman work melodically in an acoustic setting with just an acoustic bass..', I would say sure. It would be like playing with a sousaphone while others are silent.

As for the other clip, you're right about the drummer being civilized. Of course, he's focused on a snare with brushes which might limit his enthusiasm. But such a good ensemble player. Still a bit hard to hear the guitar in spite of leading with multi-string puncuations which, like a percussive rhythm, cuts though a lot better than single string melodic. Realize it wouldn't be right for the group but a little bit of guitar amplification would have elevated the guitars role and would have been a nice counterpoint to the clarinet and violin.

In any case I'm envious of the musicians you get to play with. In my world, when the other players stop singing or soloing, they play rhythm twice as loud to fill the void. And if the OP is dealing with piano, bass, drums, and horns and he wants to play melodic solos, that is going to call for amplification.

Matt’s great! He has a background as an orchestral musician which gives him a different sensibility. And he could come up for a shout chorus or something with more horns and it wouldn’t matter that you don’t hear the guitar at that point.

These are perceptions you are bringing into it based on later styles of music. What you hear is the dynamic level of the guitar that you will hear in the music of the pre electric era, even studio recordings. The bass, guitar and drumset make a corporate sound. You don’t hear the guitar distinctly - you hear an overall blend. (Actually I’m holding back because I want some head room for the chord solo so I sit slightly below the level of the drums.) You hear the bass blended with the flat four bass drum in the same way. The guitar just isn’t a melodic voice in this situation- it’s a percussive rhythm instrument. That’s what it did.

Then Charlie Christian came along and changed it all. (And most jazz players references start with Charlie.)

People just aren’t really used to it - even some players who play this music! They grew up in an era where every “acoustic group” is amplified.

As far as amplification goes - we usually played amped, but that’s a different thing. When you bring an amp into it you start to change the sound of the instrument. The best solution is to mike things up but that’s a whole can of worms that has been discussed elsewhere.

Either you are happy with that, or you want something different. The majority of people want something different I would say. So I bring my Gibson and an amp lol. If the drummer starts playing ride you are in straightahead jazz territory. It’s going to be a long night in that situation if I’ve brought a knife to a gun fight so to speak. Most of the time electric is the best choice practically speaking whether or not the band leader thinks it’s a swing band. People also put stimers on their GJ guitars which amounts to the same type of sound.

You may well say ‘why bother?’ and that’s valid. It’s really a specialist thing. But I do like the idea of purely acoustic jazz with a guitar. Doesn’t have to be pre war swing.

In a drumless ensemble it’s easier to play a more melodic role. There’s a reason so many of the single string virtuosi of the 30s tended play in string bands etc.

I really do think the main determining factor is the room in all senses. Most instruments have a lot more head room than guitar when it comes to upping the ante. So if you have a noisy audience they will play louder and look at you expectantly lol. Amp time!

In the days of yore bands were used to this kind of balancing. The Basie band were known for it - play to the level of the guitar. Good luck finding a big band that does that now when playing those charts (there are a few out there but most bands blast it).

In a professional situation comes down to whether your band leader etc wants to make this sort of thing work. It has to come from them. there are times when you find people keen to make it work acoustically, and the right sort of room but I keep always a pickup and a small amp in the bag just in case. I play the gig

As far as playing solos in a small acoustic group without drums, you can totally do it if you have the technique and the other players know how to comp. Those are two big ifs. There used to be an acoustic jams (and gigs) at the QuecumBar and the players there were able project over three or four rhythm guitar players (as were others) because they knew how to comp dynamically and had the appropriate right hand lead technique.

A pianist would need to be sensitive in this role as the instrument obviously has a larger dynamic range. Stride players can be a bit heavy handed.

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[Christian Miller]

And instruments are a big factor two. A horn player blasting away on a Selmer Mark 6 is way louder than someone channeling Trumbauer on a C melody sax


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[Christian Miller]

Here’s a friend John Kelly doing the acoustic guitar in an early jazz band thing. Two notes - guitar seated in front of rhythm section, and that old Ephiphone is a cannon as those things are wont to be. The drums are barely audible, as they should be lol.

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[garybaldy]

Thanks very much for all your advices.

So probably an eastman AR810ce or 805ce won't be loud enough tu play it acoustly in little gigs. Maybe could be nice for rythm guitar, but not for chorusing.

I will go to those gigs with my ibanez GB10 and a 4 kg jazz combo (I go by feet, no car).

And maybe I will still consider buying an eastman archtop, and play it acoustic only for home practise, quiet jam with another acoustic guitarist ou with an doublebass.

I am very pleased with receiving so much answers to my quest, and the high quality of your explanations, and videos examples.

If you want the sound of an acoustic archtop an electric archtop won't give you that sound.
If you amplify an acoustic archtop with an appropriate pickup and amp and use Monel strings you'll achieve the acoustic flavour - enough for a band setting.
Everyone will hear you and so will you.

[Stringswinger]

Frankly, the only non amplified guitar I would consider for single note solos is a resonator. A Gypsy guitar can be loud enough if A) there are no drums, B) the audience is not too loud and C) the rest of the band keeps it down.

I do not think any Eastman guitars that I have ever heard or played would do as well as almost any Gypsy guitar, so my answer to the question posed by the OP is this: No, an Eastman guitar will not be loud enough.

[RJVB]

My experience is that all guitar don't have similar acoustic volume. By far.

That's true.

You said English is not your language ... are you in France perchance (and if so, where)?