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Hey, that's my line! - 2023 CP Thornton Classic tele II with humbuckers
Originally Posted by Doug B
I was torrified when I saw the price!
Too bad you're not made of tonewood: "As tonewood ages over multiple decades, its cellular structure goes through changes that make the guitar much more resonant, responsive, and alive. Torrefaction is a scientific process that results in changes to the cellular structure of the wood. It quickly turns new wood into what naturally takes decades..."
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04-04-2025 04:13 PM
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I have no idea why someone would think that to be the case, the snakehead headstock is actually a great design from a functionality standpoint Originally Posted by Archie
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Why is Heritage getting a pass for this? Because there's nothing else going on with US builders and that's it?
I don't agree.
1. It's ugly. From the overwrought tailpiece to the weird headstock.
2. It's way overpriced.
3. It doesn't seem to apply to any specific market
I mean.. if nobody around here plans on buying one what does that say for the rest of the market? I think they really missed the mark with this. Either make an affordable guitar that looks and sounds great or make something for high end customers who really wanted a Gibson L5. Predict this won't last long and few will be sold. In the end it will act as a detriment dissuading future archtop builds. Kudos for making any archtop? IMHO this does more harm than good.
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I had the opportunity to watch this Heritage model during its development. I was able to play the prototype along with a Benedetto of similar design. They seemed comparable.
The 717 has a lot of work hours on it for the bracing and plates. The pickup was made at Heritage with a number of prototypes before the final selection.
One thing to note is that this has two extra frets compared to most similar sized acoustic archtops. That may be something you'd like to have every once in a while.
The guitar is quite light and very resonant. It's not for me, but it does sound beautiful. I'd worry too much about accidentally harming this object of art. But for someone who wants a gorgeous sounding acoustic archtop and has the money, this is a good choice.
I doubt they will build many. But it is the flagship now.
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They didn't create this instrument to sell a lot of them. I watched this model in evolution. It is a statement on how to build a great archtop. It won't bring in much revenue at all I predict. Originally Posted by Spook410
Here's where I agree with you. The tailpiece is too much. A finger tailpiece would be more subtle, very functional, and fit the overall austerity of the design. I'd also like inlays.
When you see it up close, hold it in your lap, and play it, you can best appreciate it.
Neither you nor I will buy one. I'm happy with mounted pickups for the most part. But the 717 shows off the Heritage builders skills.
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I hate to say it, but this thread makes me feel like I’m reading The Gear Page…
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I think there are some things missing in all these "that costs too much" raging rants.
1/ $13,000 today is equivalent to about $6200 in 1995. At that time, list price for a Golden Eagle was just over $4500. But the archtop market was more in play then, and Heritage has since changed from a makers-owned entity to a financialized (music conglomerate) entity. In 1995 terms, I don't think the $1700 added differential is out of line with what this H-717 would have cost if introduced then.
2a/ The comparison between factory-produced (or scaled craft shop) guitars and individual luthiers is fraught. For a company selling into distribution the economics are different. If a company is selling into two-tiers distribution, list prices have to typically be about 5X cost out the door. And keep in mind international distribution adds another channel layer for exported guitars. That means a $13,000 guitar sold into two-tiers distribution (maker sells to distributors who in turn sell to retailers) has to leave the factory having *cost* the maker no more than $2600. It might then get sold to a distributor for $3900 - $5200, depending on agreements. The distributor will then sell to the retailer for between $5,000 - say $6500, depending on what they bought it for. Then the retailer has 40 - 50 points of margin to work with and in which to cover any discounting if they sell for less than $13,000.
2b/ If the maker is selling into one-tier of distribution (direct to retailers), retailer agreements will be variable. Sweetwater gets a better deal than your local independent music store. But if they sell on average to allow the retailer 50 points of margin against the list price, the maker will sell into its channel for ~$6500, but because there is one less tier of distribution maybe they allow their cost out the door to rise to 1/4th the list, or $3250, for $3250 in gross profit.
2c/ Now, does anyone think that the all-in costs to an H-717 *isn't* in that range of $2600 - $3250? All-in -- materials, labor, that guitar's share of facilities costs, etc.? I don't know what it is but having run a manufacturing facility for while, I know it's not $1000.
3/ Notice one thing in these examples -- THE MAKER realizes less profit than the channel, unless the channel gives away their own margin. Plus, it's the maker who finances 30/60/90 days payment terms. It's the maker who funds market awareness to drive demand pull.
4/ Individual luthiers selling directly to consumers don't have the channel putting a needle into their potential profit. Someone like Mark Campellone who sometimes sells to a dealer, does on those sales, but as I understand it, it's not the bulk of his business. If Heritage elects to sell consumer-direct only, then the guitar can list at a lower price.
None of this makes one like a guitar or dislike it. But for Heritage to develop and introduce this H-717, yielding something in functional and craft league with Benedetto, the economics involved support the $12,995 list price regardless whether a working musician can afford it.
Phil
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Love that headstock, it has a unique and wonderful look to me.
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Yes as always I should have caveated my point to say 'within reason’. Originally Posted by wintermoon
I have no idea why someone would think that to be the case, the snakehead headstock is actually a great design from a functionality standpoint
I can’t put it in academic terms but the headstock represents a full stop, to the design of the body and neck. When the top of the headstock is too narrow, it's like a coma. It’s like finishing a song on the 5th.
That probably doesn't make much sense but that’s how I see it.
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As long as you can stomach the headstock. They almost got it right! Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Never bothered me. Originally Posted by skiboyny
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Room for improvement, but not really an issue for me.
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Well I will say Pete Farmer is a quality luthier and an improvement over the older retired guys. But at that price I would go with a Buscarino custom build. And the options form Campellone, and a number of other luthiers seem more attractive to my sense of taste,and price point.
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I think if there was a slight concave slope on the sides, there wouldn't be so much angst. Would eliminate the "paddle" look. Originally Posted by Hammertone
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Maybe, Jimmy D'Aquisto took headstock design to the extreme.
The famous Jimmy D'Aquisto 'Blue Centura Deluxe' headstock below:
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All headstocks look peculiar if you look at them long enough. I guess I’m just not a guitar connoisseur any more.
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I agree, and suspect that this is the consensus. Inexpensive, simple, easy change, but Heritage has always missed the boat on aesthetic subtlety. That didn't stop me from finding three really fabulous ones. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
Last edited by Hammertone; 04-13-2025 at 02:56 PM.
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Thing is.. I like Heritage. I like their H150's. I have a 1989 535 that's a very good guitar. I was also interested in various flavors of Eagles. I want them to do well and if tariffs shut down imports, maybe they can leverage that to grow their business. Thing is, this isn't the guitar to get them there and I wonder if they understand just how conservative the archtop buyer is. A guitar few are interested in doesn't fulfill the role of flagship. On the other hand, build a great L5 and they will come.
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I'd LOVE the headstock on my 1990's Golden Eagle if I could only somehow reclaim that guitar, sold during a time of duress. Originally Posted by skiboyny
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Oh... be still my heart... Originally Posted by Hammertone
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What’s stopping you from getting another incredibly similar Golden Eagle instead of re-hashing the past? They come up on a regular basis. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Last edited by Hammertone; 04-13-2025 at 02:58 PM.
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stand in line and take a regret selling number… Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Wow, what a trio! That KB is my favorite Heritage archtop. I was never fortunate enough to score one, however. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
stand in line and take a regret selling number…
That said, I'm very happy with my Golden Eagle.
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2B, we had a small window where selling fees and shipping fees were cheap and we were able to use the Internet to buy and sell a bunch of guitars. There are about 20 guitars that I have owned that I sometimes miss, but I have 23 guitars at present, and if I had those other 20, I might be a bit overwhelmed. I think it is hard to not regret selling stuff and watching the price on those items go up, but remember the old adage "you can't go broke making a profit". Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Lawson had a case where he sold a Heritage Guitar due to economic difficulties. I get that. In 1987, I had a business failure and sold an amazing 1982 ES-175 that I miss to this day. But I paid my debts rather than go bankrupt (my word is my bond), so that guitar served a purpose. I miss it nonetheless.
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Yeah, especially since you have a rare and beautiful Golden Eagle! On that KB I should have let well enough alone (the guitar came with an original finger style tailpiece). But no, I had to go tampering with it, replacing the SD with a KA humbucker, replacing the pick guard with some style I saw on the internet. And to top it off I had an actual Buscarino solid Ebony tailpiece installed that had come as an extra with a Vestax D’A I bought from a guy in San Francisco. The late great Aaron Cowles did all the work, but if I had to do it over again I’d have simply installed the KA and been done with it. Rookie mistake! Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
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