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I have a Fender Precision Fretless Bass which needs to be set up. My questions are:
a) What string height on the 12th fret?
b) What string height from the nut to fretboard?
Same goes for the Precision fretted bass?
Many thanks.
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03-30-2025 11:26 AM
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String height is usually measured at the 17th fret and is typically 5 to 6/64” above the board on the G and 6 to 7/64” on the E. For fretted instruments, measurements are between string and fret rather than board.
Originally Posted by swingtoneman
Fender recommends no less than 0.010” between the string bottom at the nut and the fingerboard. But I’ve seen many (fretted and fretless) that were as high as 18 to 20 thou because no one bothered to set them up. My ‘57 P is at 10 thou, which is also the relief at the 7th fret. I use old school heavy flats - if you use less tense strings, you’d almost certainly have to add a few thou to relief and action to avoid buzzing. The shorter the fingerboard radius, the higher relief and action should be to avoid buzzing.
Remember that the contact point for scale length and intonation should be at the center of the 12th “fret” marker on a fretless. If you have no markers, the standard Pbass scale is 34” from the board edge of the nut to the center of the g string saddle. Most of us add the diameter of the g string to 34 to set the saddle, then add the diameter of the d to that to set the next saddle etc. So the scale length for e is 34 + the diameters of the other strings. This usually gives decent intonation that’s as close as most fretless players need. For a fretted bass, you’d obviously set intonation even more accurately from there with a tuner.
All of the above assumes average touch and force. If you really dig in or use very floppy strings, go up with action and relief. If you’re very gentle and /or use stiff strings, you should be fine at the minimum values.
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Is there an equivalent to the "stop at the 2nd fret, check the action at the 1st fret" for fretless guitars? Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Not in so many words - Originally Posted by RJVB
Fretless guitars and basses have a distinct sound in their attack that's been described as everything from a bark to a growl to "mwah". Jocko's tone was the classic example of this, but every fretless bass has it to some degree whether upright or on a strap, acoustic or electric. Modulus barks like a dog, for example. I love whatever it is, and I find that really low action seems to reduce it (as does gentle playing). So I slot my nuts for minimum string height with no buzz and just a bit of growl / bark / mwah / whatever.
Since the most common cause of poor intonation at the first few frets is a nut slot that's too high, I also check intonation after every tiny reduction in slot height. If I can get string height at the nut to 10 thou with good intonation, I stop. If there's buzzing above that, there's usually something else in need of adjustment or repair - relief, fret wear, high fret, etc. Going below 10 is pointless to me, since playing is effortless at 10 or even a few thou higher.
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Many thanks for your replies---much appreciated.
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A lot of the Jaco sustain & mwah sound is dependent on round-wound strings. The same bass guitar set up the same way with flats yields the dead, smooth sound of Stanley Sheldon on the jazz classic "Frampton Comes Alive" or Gary King on some of Grover Washington Jr's "Mister Magic." Back in the 1970s "round-wound" usually meant hard Rotosound strings that chew the crap out of the fingerboard. Jaco, Florida critter that he was, would resurface his board with boat epoxy to counteract that. And that was a lot of people in1976: People were yanking the frets off their Fenders, filling the slots and running to the marine supply store. (Around 1978 I got an old Gibson EB-2 that had black epoxy goobed all over the board.) Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Another aspect of "mwah" is that it's very much a function of left-hand touch. You pull that sound out of the instrument -- much of it is about intention and control.
+ + +
We now return you to normal JG.be discussion: "What Case Did Kenny Burrell Use For 'Why Was I Born?' "
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Most of the attack envelope of an upright bass is due to the compliance of the top. Aside from the resonances of the top plate, the movement under the bridge feet softens the attack but adds a richer "thump" which drives the rhythm, freeing the drums to float above the groove.
Fender originally had foam rubber under the bridge cover, to shorten the sustain and attempt an emulation of upright bass. Did ok for James Jamerson, but I have been thinking for some time about how to better achieve the acoustic thump.
Because the soundpost in the acoustic bass prevents vertical motion under the G string, it converts the horizontal motion of the string to a pivoting, pumping motion at the bass foot, under the E string. So the compliance is limited for higher pitches (which tend to sustain with less thump) but is mainly for the lower pitches. My guess is an appropriate stiff spring under the E side of a bridge on a solid body bass would yield an approximation of the acoustic response. What I lack is specifications, the spring rate for the spruce top under the E string. With that info one could hollow out the wood under a bridge plate and mount a coil spring* under the E, so the bridge can rock like an acoustic bridge. There are plenty cheap solid body basses for experimenting.
Like guitar, electric bass is convenient and easy to record. But it sounds shallow, or takes focus away from the melody without offering the rhythmic drive of upright bass. It's fine against a back beat but can't do the job in a jazz trio. However, a decent upright is both expensive and an ordeal to travel with, not to mention amplify satisfyingly.
*I suspect a valve-return spring from a car's cylinder head might come close to the right stiffness and be compact enough to install.
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TW, you're obviously entitled to your opinion and I, as a 50+ year jazz bassist (45+ on upright) can respectfully disagree. Which I do.
I'm only going to comment on this one statement:
You sure about that? Originally Posted by twtunes
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Most do feel that RW strings get more of that sound than flats, but flats will also do it. For gentle to normally aggressive players, it takes very low action on a straight board (no more than 2 or 3 thou of relief), since part of the sound is faint string buzz against the board. Harder fingerboard wood makes more mwah too. Jaco coated his boards with marine epoxy, ostensibly because his aggressive playing wore the wood down rapidly. But this had to contribute to his tone, and players who want more of that characteristic choose harder board woods. Along with the carbon fiber construction, I think the Modulus phenolic fingerboard is a key factor in the classic bark of a Modulus, too. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
There were a few other significant factors shaping Jaco's sound. He never changed strings unless one broke - so those rounds were about as lifeless as a RW can be. It's also well known that he ate a lot of fried chicken before playing (no joke - this is true), and he didn't wash his hands. So his strings and fingerboard were apparently thickly coated with congealed grease. Jaco (like Stevie Ray, Greg Allman and many other well known musicians of his time) was not the cleanest peach in the basket.
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Yes, Jaco loved chicken...and likely had a bit of it on his fingers. Hence his famous song..."The Chicken".
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Imo, it's highly foolish to not stagger the string heights at the nut, especially for a bass. Bass strings each have a vastly different diameter and feel so using the same height for each one really doesn't work well. I forgot the measurements that I used to use, but if you want to take it down to as low as .010 inches, I would set the 1st string there and stagger the rest progressively higher 2nd thru 4th. To be more conservative I would recommend something like .014, .015, .016, .017, or even in .002 inch differentials.
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Perhaps explain why most jazz uses upright, including pretty much all Scofield albums, excluding Swallow Tales, or Blue Matter type recordings.
I always felt Jaco pulled my ear, where in Weather Report with Joni.
Back to my question, how to replicate the attack envelope of an upright with a solid body bass.
Btw, I gigged on bass in the 60s, playing pop, and loved it. (Beatle bass into a Dual Showman amp.)
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Why is that? Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Swallow plays wonderfully. Thanks for posting that clip. Swallows attack is probably affected by his past, the instrument (being electro-acoustic) and that he plays with a pick away from the bridge.
Interesting article here: Citron Guitars
Edit to add: and even if the Swallow sound oozes jazz, and upright and fingers and fretless the bass he plays is fretted. A marvellous example of ear telling something that the eye cant confirm.Last edited by teeps; 04-02-2025 at 03:06 AM.
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That’s a common recommendation - it’s even about halfway down Fender’s setup page under “truss rod”. I think it’s because our fingers can only push straight down when we fret. Our fingers only curl perpendicular to our palms - we can’t exert much force off that plane, and it’s physically both difficult and uncomfortable to try. The greater the fingerboard curvature, the less fretting force is exerted perpendicular to the board - it’s simple vector geometry from high school. This facilitates faint buzzing from motion against the board right in front of the finger contact point with the string. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
Even on a fretted board, you’ll get slight buzzing with too little pressure on the string. The flatter the board, the more finger pressure is applied perpendicular to the string, the fret, and the board (and the less is wasted displacing and stretching the string, which also affects intonation).
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