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So.. I could have a baby grand piano in the living room. Wouldn't expect to move it around. It just has to sound good. Maybe it's same for a Fender twin. Hmm.
I have plenty of gear. Modeling stuff I like. Even a Fender tube amp ('81 Concert with a nice clean channel). But lately I've been thinking 'what's my all time favorite jazz tone'. Like.. not just the 'quite good and imminently practical' I get from modeling. More like.. best possible. Based on listening history, what I came up with was a few different guitars (a Gibson L5 being one) through a twin.
So, can I have a Fender twin? Of course I can. I might not be able to lift it, but I can have one in my living room. The prospect raises some questions.
Do I want a ToneMaster? Cheaper. More practical. And,at 33 pounds, transportable. But this is a last hoorah. A howl at the moon. A final nod to a golden age. A 'because I can'. So I sort of want the real deal in the hope and belief there's going to be a difference. Doesn't have to be point to point wired.. but would at least like real tubes.
Does it have to be vintage? I don't think so? Not like I'll be getting vintage tubes. Guessing one of the reissue models would be fine. Will take some looking into though.
Does it have to be Fender? Not really. A boutique brand would be fine but not sure it would be worth the extra expense. Also there's the question of availability.
One that I wonder about is 2X12 vs 1X15. Theoretically the 1X15 would be great and there's a nice one for sale locally. But when I look at listening history, it's all 2X12.
Then there's speaker type.. JBL's? Stock Fender (CTS or Jensen?)
And, then there's the macro, 'wouldn't a 4X10 59 Bassman really be better' though really I'm looking for a classic jazz tone.
Thought there might be a few insights and opinions.
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03-16-2025 08:30 PM
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My personal favorite is a 5F8-A Tweed era Twin circuit paired with two 12-inch Weber Ceramic California speakers with their Large H dome. That’s my favorite clean amp combination that I’ve found and has been my go to for about the last ten years.
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I have a '66 Twin w Jensens in the living room though have to admit I don't plug in at home very much anymore.
But I'd bet 99.99999% of Fender amp users think they're way overkill in that situation and would rather use a Princeton, Champ or some other 'bedroom' amp.
ps a myth is that you have to crank a Twin for it to sound good. After owning just about every vintage Fender combo amp and playing them in many settings I can say it’s just a myth, they sound great at any volume level.
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I’ll second that they sound great at any volume level. I don’t find that true of every amp. For example I have an Ampeg VT-22 that sounds amazing, but not until it starts to get pretty loud.
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I’m not much of a Twin fan. I’ve played through a lot of them, and have struggled to get a sound I don’t hate out of most. I’d take a PR any day over one. The ones I have done OK with were original BF’s, SF’s that were blackfaced, and a reissue with a 15. But I wouldn’t actually want any of them. Too bright and clean, the point where they get enough warmth and compression to my tastes is way too loud.
If you like Twins (or any other piece of gear), cool. Go get one. But if you just think they’re best as a matter of reputation, go play a bunch before spending money. In terms of classic jazz tones, I doubt it’s the most commonly recorded amp. I’d bet there are way more recordings of smaller Fender amps, Ampegs, Gibsons, even Polytones. If there’s some particular sound you’re chasing based on recordings, odds are it wasn’t a Twin.
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I totally agree with Wintermoon. Big amps sound bigger. Even at lower volumes. Although I love my Princeton Reverb, too! Your post is timely. After owning two blackface Twin Reverbs over the years and selling them because they're too heavy, I broke my vow to never get another one and picked up a 1966 with gold Jensen C12Ns and all original transformers for $1900. The amp sounds big and warm and 3-D-like even on 2 in my house. Needless to say, I'm very happy to have a BFTR again. Is it the be all and end all of jazz guitar amps? Not necessarily. There are so many wonderful amps to choose from, including tweeds per Chuck/That Rhythm Man's suggestion. I've never played the Tone Master line, so I can't comment on them. I suspect the price difference between some era of a vintage Twin Reverb and a new one isn't that great. I'd go vintage if you can.
Originally Posted by wintermoon
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I'd suggest a master volume silver face, not too pricey and easier to dial in to low volume levels. You still get the point to point wiring, tubes etc... for speakers it depends on what you are doing. As to 12s or a 15 setting up a removable baffle board will let you try both.
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I use a 1971 Twin Reverb that was rebuilt to mid-60s specs inside a head cab and run it through a huge 1960s Fender cabinet with a 15” Weber California. It’s not as loud as a 2x12 probably would be and sounds huge even at living room volumes.
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I've been playing with a buddy at his house every Monday for five or six years now and he has a Twin in his living room. It's a *really* nice amp for jazz, even at low living room volume. 2x12" speakers in an open back cabinet move a lot of air very nicely. I would note that Fender Twins don't all sound the same. This is a silverface (pre-master volume) and I happen prefer those to blackface or more modern Twins.
If you've got a chance, play some different ones and see what you might prefer. And if you're gonna park it in your living room for use there and not be toting it around town, who cares how big, unwieldy and heavy it is? That's immaterial. Plus in the winter it's a good space heater and year-round it's a decent coffee table.
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I used to have a 1971 non master volume silverface Twin in the living room for years, used it for teaching mostly. Great sound. If one prefers the clean 6L6 sound to the edgy 6V6 sound of smaller amps like say the Princeton, it's the ultimate amp to have.
Of course an amp from the 70s can need serious service (or nothing at all). It can also need restoration, if things have been changed over the years. All big Fender amps sound great at low volume, and in a way smaller ones don't.
My ultimate ones would be a Twin and a Super reverb!
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A fender twin looks great in a living room. It's got clean lines and a retro aesthetic that goes with our furniture. Unfortunately the other night my never been serviced 68 electrocuted me severe enough I briefly struggled to drop my guitar, so it's purely a decorative stand for my Henriksen until I can afford to bring it in for an overhaul.
Last edited by StoneWaller; 03-17-2025 at 09:31 AM.
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Probably the best deal would be a 68-71 SF. You're looking at 800-1800 bucks depending on condition and speakers and how bad the seller wants it out of their spare bedroom. A JBL loaded model will probably require a new baffle board because they are MDF/chip board. Mine did (and it didn't even come with JBL's). I took the time to run a wood strip across the top of the new baffle because heavy speakers will still cause flexing in the new board. Flexing can mean rubbing and noise from where the baffle contacts the bottom side of the amp chassis. The mojotone baffle is a quality piece, better than original, but still not really equipped to handle 30 or 40 pounds of speaker for a decade, especially if you leave the amp on it's back for long periods.
Some of the mid and late 70's Twins have a glued in baffle. That won't be a fun fix.
Twins don't sound that great to me below 4 on the volume knob. If you can get to 4 then roll your guitar volume back you are gonna make nice sounds. I had some of the input cap values on my older Twin modded and now it really sounds good when it's screaming loud. Tight, punchy, and controlled.
People who buy RI models are not thinking this through clearly or just don't know a good tech. You need to know a good tech if you work an old amp hard and often enough. If you don't know a good tech then an RI might make sense.
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I forgot about the particle board baffle, it's been that long since I replaced mine.
I used marine ply, pretty easy if you have wood working skills. If you install a 15 it has to be offset to clear the transformers but this is good for carrying as the weight is more balanced.Last edited by Cavalier; 03-17-2025 at 01:07 PM.
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Under the piano for sure! I keep it covered because we have no place to store the cover unfolded. The amp’s on casters (added by a previous owner), so I wheel it out to play, then let it cool and cover it when I’m done. Yes, it sounds great at any volume.
I don’t understand how boosting the amp’s volume and cutting the guitar’s changes the amp’s tone. The volume pot controls the signal going into the preamp. The signal level coming out of that pot will be the same for the same power output to the speaker (and therefore the SPL) no matter how you balance the guitar and amp volume pots. Guitar on 3 and amp on 5 (arbitrary numbers - it may be 2 and 8, 1 and 9, etc) will generate the exact same signal voltage out of the amp’s volume pot as whatever reciprocal combination produces the same SPL.
The guitar’s wiring may be such that treble drops off as the volume pot is lowered. But the amp’s sound will be unaffected by this. It’s the guitar that sounds different. As different guitars have different wiring schemes, some will sound different with their volume pots lowered and others won’t.
Behind my Twin is my Princeton. It’s not on wheels, so I don’t bring it out for practice and fun as much as I do the Twin.
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The other nice thing about a twin in the living room is if you ever want to redecorate you can turn it to 10 and blow the paint off the walls! Got mine new in'68 at Mannys I can still remember playing it on 10 in the garage before my Dad got home...later when I developed some taste i discovered it was the greatest jazz amp ever, gave it up a few years ago because I couldnt move it, traded for a '65 deluxe, not the same.
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1. It's not overkill. They sound good at any volume. Put a princeton next to it at the same volume and you'll think the princeton is garbage. The people who say they don't sound good at living room volume are rockers who are trying to get distortion.
2. The tonemasters are lame. I play one every week at a rehearsal space. It's fine with a band compared to other fake amps (way better than the tonemaster deluxe), but compared to a real tube one, it's a complete joke.
3. Vintage seems scarier because of the older components. However, vintage amps are much more serviceable. Get an amp tech to look over it and you're probably taking less risk than buying something with PCB that is harder to service. Not to mention the resale value. Vintage BF twins are surprisingly cheap.
4. If 2x12 is too much, try 2x10, a vibrolux. That's what I use. Perfect amp for any setting.
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A few thoughts..
I've started to look about for a tech. The closest one may be four hours away in Portland. Hopefully I can find one closer.
I could get a not-so-nice used amp and have it restored if a tech can be found. Amps are surprisingly cheap but have to work well. In addition, my wife is incredibly generous when it comes to all the music gear scattered about the house but the amp will still have to look nice. When it comes to carpentry, I'm a great fisherman. If I had to have the tolex patched up, screen replaced, and baffle replaced.. could probably have bought something more expensive in the first place.
Exception to cheap: The only Vibrolux I see for currently for sale is $6K. Original owner.. perfect.. all that.. but kind of steep for an amp.
Something like a Victoria Tweed is still tempting. Probably some other boutique makers I should look at as I may not be able to locate a good tech for used gear. $3K is a lot for an amp but new would be better.
As for modeling vs tube amp.. I do get it. Even as much as I like modeling. You can't beat that warm hug you get from an open back cabinet. Especially up close in the living room. And, though I'm not all that much a purist, I can usually still hear tubes vs not tubes. Maybe one day it will be so close we can't tell. Not sure we're there yet.
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I’ve had 5 different Twins. My last was a single 15”
Great amp, and extremely clean!
And it sat in my living room…
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That Vibrolux has been for sale forever. If the original owner waits long enough he may get his 6 grand but he might be too old to enjoy it if he isn't already. But if you look hard you can find a nice one in the 3-3.5k range. Originally Posted by Spook410
VR's are my favorite amp tone-wise but I use Twins 99% of the time on gigs for that huge full sound.
I have Princetons and Deluxes acquired through the years but they're just collecting dust, given the choice I won't play through anything smaller than a VR. A friend is caught up in the Princeton frenzy and would probably trade his mint VR for one and I may just take him up on it.
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This won’t be a help to the OP, but to anyone in the Chicago area, this is a killer amp. They have it on sale at the moment for $1600. It’s worth every penny.
Clark Amplification Low Country 5F8A High Power Tweed Twin 80-Watt 2x1
– Chicago Music Exchange
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I had a Twin, in my 20's. For bigger outdoor gigs I'd borrow a second. I thought I was pretty important!
They're fantastic amps. At home, I don't think you'd get to use about 90-95% of what they can do. I used to think they didn't sound "like themselves" until at least 4 or 5 on the volume...which is enough to rattle the light fixtures
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I think DawgBone is trying to get some bloom out of the power amp. What you describe is probably right considering just the preamp, but pushing the power amp up from 1.5 to 4 or 5 will alter the tone being put out of the speaker. Because the guitar amp EQ and the guitar EQ don't roll tone off at the same frequency or slope, there will be a sweet spot of adjustments for every combination of guitar and the preamp section to find what you're looking for. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
FWIW, I always run the amp louder than I need and back the volume knob off on the guitar. I like what this does to the tone in terms of knocking off some high frequencies without having to roll the tone control back quite so much. I even find this works with my solid-state amplifiers quite well.
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The volume pot on the amp only attenuates the signal coming from the guitar cable. It has no direct effect on the power output (which will remain the same if the guitar’s output signal is reduced by its volume pot to keep the output level constant). Several others seem to have expressed the belief that if you increase the amp’s volume pot above 4 and cut back on the guitar’s volume to keep the output level down, a Twin will somehow sound better than if you get the same volume with the guitar wide open and the amp dialed back. This is simply not true. The amp itself will sound the same. Originally Posted by Cunamara
If there’s a difference in tone between those alternatives, the only possible source is that the guitar is wired so that treble is reduced as volume is reduced (which is the case for many guitars we all use). Whether a Twin sounds better above 4 than below with all other controls on guitar and amp the same is a different question. I think the answer is no, at least for jazz.
I can’t comment on whether a Twin sounds better on 10 than it does on 3. I’ve never cranked any of my amps all the way up except for my first two - a 5W Kay followed by a 1x12 Ampeg (I don’t remember the model name).
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I have 2 Guyatone Reverb Customs, a 2x12” and a 1x15”. They are vintage, from the 70ies.
I have blackfaced them, which was not too difficult and involved changing only a couple of resistors and caps. Other mods I did were to add reverb and tremolo also to the normal channel and I changed the normal channel’s tonestack to Bassman/early Marshall.
They sit in my studio downstairs (in the living room I have a Squier 10g amp which gives the same type of sound at low volume). The Twins go out every now and them, used them last weekend and they sounded great and always deliver. Will not part with them!
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Wow - you play through 2 Twins? Originally Posted by Little Jay
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