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Why would there ever be a resurgence if archtops continue to be painted into a corner as "jazz boxes" (is there any other main music stream where players disdain their instruments to the point of calling them "boxes"?!). Not as long as what jazz players actually want is electric guitars. The archtop may have been the origin of that (different!) instrument, the e-guitar has clearly evolved beyond what can be done with an acoustic archtop with a PU slapped on.
Originally Posted by Ob Com
Boutique builders may help if their instruments are used to their full potential by a key player, more or less as I've often read what Clapton did for the popularity of the acoustic guitar. I have no idea what the inflation-adjusted price of the entry-level guitars was at the time, but I think it must have been closer to 1k than to 2k or even more.
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01-20-2025 02:31 PM
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Jeez- I was not using the term “jazz boxes” in a pejorative sense nor do i distain my instrument
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Who else but a jazz guitarist would want an archtop? It is a guitar with a sound and appearance that is associated with jazz of the 1950s and earlier. Its design has not changed much since that time.
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Well, blues players, easily. That genre has a long reference history of archtop utility, right up to the present and continuing forward. Rockabilly, too. Originally Posted by Litterick
There's a scene in "A Complete Unknown" in which Dylan is late showing up for an appearance on a Pete Seeger-hosted TV show. This event didn't actually happen but it is in the movie in part to show the reality of Seeger's adaptiveness and musical curiosity outside of traditional banjo and folk guitar. It has roots in reality. Pete has a (made-up) bluesman guest "Jesse Moffett," played by Big Bill Morganfield, son of McKinley Morganfield, aka Muddy Waters. After Pete apologizes to the audience expecting Dylan as the next guest, he reverts to "Moffett." Morganfield has a big acoustic Epiphone archtop in his lap (I don't recall whether it's an Emperor, Deluxe or Broadway -- have to go see the movie again and watch carefully) when Dylan and Bob Neuwirth walk in. Pete tells the audience that Dylan has arrived after all and motions for him to go into the studio set. There's some banter back and forth between "Moffett, " Dylan and Seeger. Dylan kind of demurs interrupting "Moffett" but the bluesman insists Dylan take his guitar and join him. He also offers Bob a snort of schnapps, vodka or white lightning and Bob takes a swig. Dylan doesn't want to take the Epiphone, saying something like "...no way...touching another man's guitar is kind of like touching his woman..." "Moffett insists, Dylan relents and "Moffett pulls out a Gibson L-5 he has with him. They break into a three chord blues, with Seeger picking up the groove on banjo. When "Moffett" nods to Dylan to sing, Bob cues up opening lyrics to "It Takes a Lot to Laugh, It Takes a Train to Cry," over a churning blues rumble.
That big Epiphone gets its closeup and has charisma to match the performers'. I heard a couple to my right, the woman asking, "What kind of guitar is that? You should get one of those!" Guy responds, "Yeah, I think I should." That's one way the archtop draws in new adherents.
You can want and use an archtop, acoustic or pickupified, for any kind of music guitar can be applied to, except maybe controlled feedback expression. Jazz guitarists tend to view jazz as the highest expression of steel string guitar, but lots of players are undeterred by the effeteness of some/many players and listeners of the genre. And with a nice, red, Epiphone Broadway available at $999 everywhere online, it's easy to get into the archtop realm, get hooked, and start wanting more. Regardless whether jazz is in your mind and fingers, or not. It's also true that you don't need an archtop to play jazz. So, archtops are for everybody, as well as flattops and Telecasters, too.
I'm not a jazz guitarist -- I'm just now venturing into it as a player. But I bought my first archtop 35 years ago, not because I wanted to play jazz, but because I wanted acoustic & electric archtop tones for anything I wanted to play. Let's just say I didn't stop at one.
PhilLast edited by 213Cobra; 01-20-2025 at 08:57 PM.
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What do you call the Seasons piece by Anthony Wilson, and (most of) the other piece on the same recording that exists of it? Jazz, because that's what he and the other performers usually play? The video doesn't show what's on the stands but it sure looks like it must be written-out scores ... so ... can't be jazz?
What do you call something like Harry Volpe's Modern Etude and his other solo pieces, or those by Lang or Kress?
None of the above would probably be a cause for unanimously raised eyebrows if it were to be presented as classical music. And besides, how does it really differ from the works of, say, Sor, Barrios and maybe even Villa-Lobos, at least back when they wrote them?
It's a niche in a niche, no doubt about that. But things could have been different, and things can still change.
At least in the not-for-the-masses sphere:
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These latest comments remind me of the videos of the late Michael Chapdelaine playing some of The Blue Guitar Collection.
Also, the above controlled feedback comment also brings up Ted Nugent’s use of a Byrdland. I don’t know if there is any veracity to the story, but it’s been said that he would map out the stage so that he knew where to go to get desired feedback.
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The above two videos are great, but I think it begs the question of what people mean when they say “archtop.”
If my guitar has a pickup, I go for a much more electric sound. I recently went to purchase a carved top with a floater and discovered it really wasn’t for me. The two above are so acoustic oriented that I’d rather get a good flattop at a fraction of the price, possibly something with nylons
The archtop sound to me is a that laminate Jim Hall/Joe Pass sound. I can kind of get that realm with a semi hollow, not sure i’d need an archtop really (I do have a Peerless Gigmaster which I love).
A lot of archtops (like carved/with floaters) just seem like a niche product for an already niche genre. The used market is probably already over saturated with archtops.
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Some other guitarists, outside jazz, play archtops; but so what? There are not many of them, and no sign that the archtop will become popular. I don't see many blues players using them, rockabilly is hardly a mass pursuit, and makers of alternative music are unlikely to change the world.
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He also had one of Ken Parker's creations at his disposal for a while, though I don't think he made any purely acoustic recordings with it. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
"Controlled feedback comment"?Also, the above controlled feedback comment also brings up Ted Nugent’s use of a Byrdland. I don’t know if there is any veracity to the story, but it’s been said that he would map out the stage so that he knew where to go to get desired feedback.
What you describe is a quite common thing among classical players. At least to get the optimum projection in the direction of the audience, which may not be what you meant with "desired feedback"?
Actually, there were some small signs, before I decided to stop using that American Gutt Fearing hangout, in the form of what looked like a timidly increased number of new posters in the archtop subsection. Originally Posted by Litterick
Flat tops sound different, even in the hands of someone like Michael Watts I vastly prefer the sound he gets playing archtops than flattops (there's a video where he plays one of each from the same builder, IIRC during his visit to Hawaii). Properly played, a good acoustic archtop can get a sound that's much more appropriate for classical music IMHO and I still regret that I could only afford an archback classical.
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Let's wait and see if Elden Kelly becomes a household name. He's recently made some great video clips playing acoustic archtops, including Ken Parker's.
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Completely forgot on of our own brought out this album not that long ago:
playlist URL:
Code:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-25IXhLv7pY&list=PLjpATszXPXrKddiNluTjrbpWZqkkSuq2i
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Michael Watts playing a French built Blind B51A roundhole archtop for sale currently at The Guitar Showrooms Heathfield, Sussex, UK.
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Beautiful instrument but I don't know if it's the movengui B&S wood, the round soundhole or the flat back (though domed if I see it correctly); this one does have a bit too much of the jingly-nasal sound on the trebles to my taste. Even under MW's fingers. Originally Posted by bananafist
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The guitars in a lot of these recently posted video all sound halfway to a flattop. The Ken Parker archtop also has this. Recently I had the opportunity to play a Thorell archtop... same thing.
If I had to guess, I would think it comes down to the bracing. X-bracing is more flattoppy than parallel bracing.
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Some of the best guitar sounds I've ever heard were archtops. And, I don't think those sounds are obtainable from non-archtops.
And, I think there's continuing interest in the way guitars sounded in jazz in the 50's and 60's, so there's a niche for archtops.
But, a resurgence is going to require that some sort of music which sounds best with an archtop becomes popular. I don't think that can be the music of 65 years ago. It has to be something new, probably with a great player or two innovating with an archtop.
Who can predict that?
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I think I heard a quote from Ken Parker along the lines of his archtops are for a music not yet invented.
That Thorell was a joy to play for me, and it was much different sounding/feeling etc. than my own parallel-braced archtops.
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Shifting the soundhole north like on KP archtops modifies the main air resonance in a way that the guitar could indeed sound more like what we expect from steelstring flattops (a flattop with f-holes is supposed to have archtop characteristics), and in a similar way it's quite possible that X-bracing creates the sonic properties that we recognise from the usual domain of application of that bracing. Originally Posted by supersoul
But I think that what's mostly going on is that the archtop has been so painted into a corner many have indeed been built and played in ways to sound like they should in "their" kind(s) of music that esp. afficionados of those styles are simply unaware how subtle the sonic differences can be. IOW, how much like "just a very nice guitar" archtops can sound.
Not sure at all if I'd go "wow, that must be an archtop" if I heard this without seeing the video:
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"Pickupified." Originally Posted by 213Cobra
Love it!
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Even if I had read all the posts above, I wouldn't remember everything. So forgive me if somebody else has said this already: archtops prevailed because no other guitars with pickups existed. We may debate whether they were popular - evoking positive emotions among the players and their audiences - or just necessary if one wanted to play guitar in a jazz or dance band. The question then wasn't archtop or not, but which archtop. While the transition from banjos to guitars was fairly swift in the 1920s, the erosion of the archtop era was more gradual at start. IIRC, Joe Pass and Barney Kessel for instance used solidbodies for jazz at an early stage but returned to archtops. Then, almost overnight, jazz lost to rock'n'roll from 1963 onwards. In my high school years (1962-1965), the country's best dance and jazz bands used to play at school parties, until they were replaced by pimple-faced rock groups repeating their repertoire of three chords and three songs for hours. Archtops are simply not suited for rock. For them to resurge, the whole music arena would have to change completely. Should Trump issue a presidential decree banning rap, for starters?
Would a celebrity rekindle the popularity of CRT TVs or film photography? Hardly. Luckily, archtops are wonderful objects worth cherishing and collecting, and with a role, however narrow, in today's music spectrum. Let's just enjoy ours.Last edited by Gitterbug; 01-23-2025 at 01:30 AM.
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Pretty sure it was an L-7, but both beautiful guitars! Great to see them in the movie. Originally Posted by 213Cobra
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This pickup is quite archtoppy, no? Originally Posted by Cunamara
"Pickupified." Love it!
For CRTs, I honestly don't know but it does seem unlikely unless for cute little TVs. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
But in case you didn't notice, film/analog photography has been making quite the come-back, and while the choice of film stock is much more limited that it used to be there is a proportionally much larger offer of "artsy speciality" films now that I would have loved to try out back in the day. It's expensive, but I wouldn't even know if it has become that much more expensive than it always used to be.
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Yes, coming from a family of ten pro photographers in four generations (guess who's the rotten apple), I'm aware of the resurrection of film photography. However, even restricting the scope to pros and serious SLR-wielding amateurs, the "market share" of film against digital must be even lower than that of archtops within the arsenal of active guitarists. I admit that my examples were unfair, involving completely different technologies. Originally Posted by RJVB
This pickup is quite archtoppy, no?
For CRTs, I honestly don't know but it does seem unlikely unless for cute little TVs.
But in case you didn't notice, film/analog photography has been making quite the come-back, and while the choice of film stock is much more limited that it used to be there is a proportionally much larger offer of "artsy speciality" films now that I would have loved to try out back in the day. It's expensive, but I wouldn't even know if it has become that much more expensive than it always used to be.
Perhaps my point is that archtops are available to those who need them and aren't on the verge of extinction despite Gibson's absence. It's NAMM time again. I was there in 2020 when two Gibson reps promised the return of the ES-175 within a year or two. Must be more difficult each passing year. Even if the tooling were still there, critical skills may have been lost since the discontinuation in 2019.
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The Epiphone in that Seeger scene, from 'A Complete Unknown' is a postwar Triumph.
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Saw this the other day lol. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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If archtops are so low in popularity why are virtually every luthier making archtops ive talked to booked out months if not years? If theyre to expensive why are the top 5 figure intrument makers so busy they have lists to get on the list? Archtops are mainly desired by jazz guitarists, whats the least popular music being promoted? (1 guess). Im old and have been playing since the '60s so lets go back to the good old days. Most "boomers" were listening to rock. Every young player wanted a strat tele or les paul and although I was facinated by jazz and saw and heard Pizzerelli, Smith , Barnes, Cinderella, Paul...etc regularly (because my best buddie and bass players dad played with them) I thought archtops were the most beauifull things I ever saw but still wanted a Les Paul (perfect example of "pearls before swine"), I had a lesson with Tal when I was a teen, we went over the fundumentals,when he asked me what I wanted to learn I said "little wing" my point is nothings changed except theres more young guys that are quite accomplished jazzers than there was then, theres more affordable "jazz guitars" then there ever was before. What I see as the biggest factor is for the gigging musician they have to have a wide range of styles to stay busy although all the top cats I know playing jazz are all busy. The instrument and music buisness has always survived on "pop" music. When my buds dad was in his living room playing Moonlight in Vermont with Bucky we were next door playing Blue Cheer summertime blues. Nothings changed. My bud and I laugh about this as now I spend virtually all my playing time trying to be like his dad! As much as the 21st century is non intuitive to me the oportunitys for learning, buying and a much wider view of music internationally cant be undervalued. So my take is they are seeing a resurgence but in a different time when chunkin 4 to the bar isnt the main job for the guitar anymore but one of many many skills you need to stay busy, archtop tone will never go out of style and the playing of them is continually evolving. Last note, I couldnt afford a fine archtop (had/have 175) till I retired, fortunately there is now a large selection at every price point and condition. Last Last note, anyone notice how many jazz albums have been rereleased on vinyl and sold out at $50. ea...shitloads
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