MIJ 80's Epiphone Emperor F and (L-5) Brand Mania

[tomvwash]

I bought this on the Forum months back, had it set up and checked by my luthier, who got sorta testy with it because he couldn't adjust the truss rod--not that there was a reason for adjusting the truss rod--and then sorta (again) resigned it too the reject pile. I returned home with it, played through for an hour, and had the same compelling thought, especially when switching between this and my 2011 L-5 CES: Wait, this Epiphone is superb! It's an L-5--not some delusional wish that I had an L-5-with the same rich, mellow low end, with acoustic resonance, even for a laminate! $1400 v $9000?

Still couldn't get over the luthier's remarks, I respect his view nearly always, but he was wrong on this one. I posted it for sale as "good" for $995 or similar and was transparent abut the seized rod, etc...Still suspecting there is really something to these MIJ's, to this era, I took it to another luthier last week, who spent a week with it, got the truss loosened, set up, cleaned and polished, and is it stands, the neck is, what....a fraction of a fraction of an inch off, according to him? Outside of a few minor blemishes, this 45+ year-old archtop is gold.

How is this laminate archtop, at least to my ears, in perfect step with my L-5, even my two L-4's? And what's the voice in the back of my head...it's not a carved top Gibson, not a Gibson, not a Gibson...Is fine tone or build only in the ears of the beholder, or could an aficionado (no other word at the moment) have the two side by side to enlighten me as to why the $$$$$$$ one really is the superior instrument?

[Jimmy Mack]

Every guitar is different. Really. Some hi-end guitars are mediocre and some, of course, are magical. Some inexpensive guitars are magical too - you just have to be the lucky one who finds one.

I've had a bunch of good to magical guitars. I never overspent on them except I got a good deal on an L5, decent market price at the time. Hell I've found good guitars at flea markets.

What bugs me (sorta) is the hi-end guitars that weren't so magical. They brought good $$$ at selling time though.

It's been a lot of fun and a lot of great tone often. You are lucky to have the guitars you have. Enviable

[RJVB]

The guitar looks gorgeous but I'm not really surprised that your expensive carved instruments don't sound significantly better than this laminate one if they too have set PUs and pots plus a TOM bridge... A bit of a pet peeve of mine so it's nice to read a statement that seems to support it.

[arnie65]

I've always respected the way the Japanese approach towards work, they are thought at a very early age, that your work is your signature, regardless of the wages you're getting paid for it. Something that was loss a long time ago in the U.S.A.
Japanese factories have produced some of the best instruments for Fender, Ibanez, Gibson/Epiphone, Yamaha, and the list goes on... So, no surprise to find a great looking and sounding Epiphone MIJ. The truss rod issue can easily be addressed by an experienced luthier. That tobacco sunburst looks phenomenal!


Cheers,
Arnie..

[RJVB]

Something that was loss a long time ago in the U.S.A.

Funny you mention that because I've heard it said that it still exists more in the US than in parts of western Europe, or at least in the early 90s. Completely different sector: I was at a good store to buy a nice pen, comparing a UK-made Parker either with a US-made one or with a Sheaffer at the same price point. The US-made one was much nicer finished than the rather rough-looking UK model and the store owner told me something like that US workers had retained a pride in their work and ability to take satisfaction in a job well done that had been lost at least in the UK.

[DawgBone]

The name on the headstock is mostly hype once you are willing to admit that every piece of wood is different and that laminate guitars can also sound amazing. I let a Gibson go after finding a Japanese guitar that was every bit it's equal in tone, and superior in playability.

Now you can sell your Gibsons and pocket some cash for JBL equipped Twin Reverb.

[arnie65]

Funny you mention that because I've heard it said that it still exists more in the US than in parts of western Europe, or at least in the early 90s. Completely different sector: I was at a good store to buy a nice pen, comparing a UK-made Parker either with a US-made one or with a Sheaffer at the same price point. The US-made one was much nicer finished than the rather rough-looking UK model and the store owner told me something like that US workers had retained a pride in their work and ability to take satisfaction in a job well done that had been lost at least in the UK.

I was referring mostly to the U. S. guitar factories, excluding private luthiers... My comments are not without merit, In the last 30 years I've met and spoken to many ex Gibson and Fender employees at guitar shows, including NAMM, who's stories can attest to the aforementioned. A lot of the fault cannot be put on the employees themselves, when you are timing and putting quotas to do certain jobs, the quality of work will inevitably will suffer.


Arnie...

[lawson-stone]

Those MIJ archtops are incredible. I've owned 3 or 4 and all were superb.

[John A.]

I bought this on the Forum months back, had it set up and checked by my luthier, who got sorta testy with it because he couldn't adjust the truss rod--not that there was a reason for adjusting the truss rod--and then sorta (again) resigned it too the reject pile. I returned home with it, played through for an hour, and had the same compelling thought, especially when switching between this and my 2011 L-5 CES: Wait, this Epiphone is superb! It's an L-5--not some delusional wish that I had an L-5-with the same rich, mellow low end, with acoustic resonance, even for a laminate! $1400 v $9000?

Still couldn't get over the luthier's remarks, I respect his view nearly always, but he was wrong on this one. I posted it for sale as "good" for $995 or similar and was transparent abut the seized rod, etc...Still suspecting there is really something to these MIJ's, to this era, I took it to another luthier last week, who spent a week with it, got the truss loosened, set up, cleaned and polished, and is it stands, the neck is, what....a fraction of a fraction of an inch off, according to him? Outside of a few minor blemishes, this 45+ year-old archtop is gold.

I had a similar experience -- one of my guitars had some playability issues, and I suspected a maxed out truss rod (but didn't want to force it myself to confirm). I took it to a luthier (well known one whom I've had do other work) who did an aggressive fret level/recrown to get it playing Ok. He confirmed that the trussrod was maxed and that the truss rod couldn't be fixed without major surgery more expensive than the value of the guitar. Oh well. Later on, I took it to another (well known) luthier because the now very low frets were bothering me. He confirmed the need for refretting and said that would resuscitate the truss rod. He thought it was well worth doing (around $400 on a guitar that's worth around $1000). He was right. Its playability is now perfect, and the truss rod works. I hesitate to say one guy was better than the other, but let's just say people have their good and bad days.

How is this laminate archtop, at least to my ears, in perfect step with my L-5, even my two L-4's? And what's the voice in the back of my head...it's not a carved top Gibson, not a Gibson, not a Gibson...Is fine tone or build only in the ears of the beholder, or could an aficionado (no other word at the moment) have the two side by side to enlighten me as to why the $$$$$$$ one really is the superior instrument?

$1400 is actually not a cheap guitar (though in this case it's a bargain for the quality level). So the Epi should be good. OTOH, Gibsons are generally wonderful guitars, but their prices are often (extremely) skewed by the collectors' premium. So you have one guitar that's probably punching above its weight a bit (or more), and another with a price that's somewhat disconnected from its quality as an instrument. Makes for some interesting comparisons. Also, carved is not better than laminated. It's just different. No surprise you don't prefer the carved top, since that is a very common experience. To the emotional/psychological aspect of this -- we're conditioned almost from birth to conflate cost, quality, status, and self-worth. Encountering relatively inexpensive objects that equal or surpass very high price/status objects messes with our heads.

[fep]

Are you referring to it comparing to an L-5 amplified? unamplified?

It certainly would be surprising if it compared to an L-5 acoustically.

[tomvwash]

Are you referring to it comparing to an L-5 amplified? unamplified?

It certainly would be surprising if it compared to an L-5 acoustically.

Amplified L-5 CES, same for the the L-4 CES. To John's comments above, I'm not sure that I prefer one over the other, laminate over carved, but this experience has me re-thinking prior conceptions. Carved with a set pickup is somewhat of a contradiction, right, if we are supposed to be appreciating the acoustic properties of real wood, then why not the floating pickup, and why the super premium on carved as opposed to laminate, besides labor?

[DMgolf66]

I bought this on the Forum months back, had it set up and checked by my luthier, who got sorta testy with it because he couldn't adjust the truss rod--not that there was a reason for adjusting the truss rod--and then sorta (again) resigned it too the reject pile. I returned home with it, played through for an hour, and had the same compelling thought, especially when switching between this and my 2011 L-5 CES: Wait, this Epiphone is superb! It's an L-5--not some delusional wish that I had an L-5-with the same rich, mellow low end, with acoustic resonance, even for a laminate! $1400 v $9000?

Still couldn't get over the luthier's remarks, I respect his view nearly always, but he was wrong on this one. I posted it for sale as "good" for $995 or similar and was transparent abut the seized rod, etc...Still suspecting there is really something to these MIJ's, to this era, I took it to another luthier last week, who spent a week with it, got the truss loosened, set up, cleaned and polished, and is it stands, the neck is, what....a fraction of a fraction of an inch off, according to him? Outside of a few minor blemishes, this 45+ year-old archtop is gold.

How is this laminate archtop, at least to my ears, in perfect step with my L-5, even my two L-4's? And what's the voice in the back of my head...it's not a carved top Gibson, not a Gibson, not a Gibson...Is fine tone or build only in the ears of the beholder, or could an aficionado (no other word at the moment) have the two side by side to enlighten me as to why the $$$$$$$ one really is the superior instrument?

Tom,

I am SO glad that kept the guitar and took it to another repair guy. I thought that you should do that all along, but during our correspondence with each other I got the feeling that you had such faith in your guy that if I had suggested you take it to someone else might ve upset you. Anyway, I'm so glad you did, it's a beauty.

I still have the first one and had a wooden bridge made for it and it's great imho.

They are esthetically the best electric archtop. Love the color finish and everything about it.

[wintermoon]

$1400 is actually not a cheap guitar

I guess not if you make your amp covers out of duct tape
Sorry, couldn't resist

[John A.]

I guess not if you make your amp covers out of duct tape
Sorry, couldn't resist

Excuse me, those are artisan handcrafted amp covers made from small-batch duct tape made by traditional methods from a recipe handed down for generations. Harumph.

[RJVB]

I was referring mostly to the U. S. guitar factories, excluding private luthiers... My comments are not without merit.

Note that I wrote "exists more in the US than in (parts of) the EU" and indicated that this was an idea based on a remark made to me some 30y ago...

Carved with a set pickup is somewhat of a contradiction, right

Yes, my idea too, and probably even with a hand-voiced pressed top. In fact, knowing a few violin luthiers quite intimately and what their reaction to such a degratation would be I'd personally consider it an affrond to suggest to do this to an exquisite acoustic instrument.

[tomvwash]

I guess not if you make your amp covers out of duct tape
Sorry, couldn't resist

I know, what's $1400 for a guitar, especially an archtop! Peanuts! But it's still an interesting observation in terms of general cost of living. and how fortunate we are to be buying or selling, unless we're just out altogether. Guitars are recreational, for me. I don't play out.

Real world: Florida home tile repair: $5k (Sell the L-4) ; Driveway Paver / Brick Lift $3k (sell the 335); New Tile Roof: $40k (sell the Campellones, the Super (if I had one) and 2 L-5s), etc.....

[wintermoon]

Excuse me, those are artisan handcrafted amp covers made from small-batch duct tape made by traditional methods from a recipe handed down for generations. Harumph.

fortunately, I just finished my coffee or it would be all over the screen right now.

[John A.]

Amplified L-5 CES, same for the the L-4 CES. To John's comments above, I'm not sure that I prefer one over the other, laminate over carved, but this experience has me re-thinking prior conceptions. Carved with a set pickup is somewhat of a contradiction, right, if we are supposed to be appreciating the acoustic properties of real wood, then why not the floating pickup, and why the super premium on carved as opposed to laminate, besides labor?

A set pickup is coupled to the top and vibrates/resonates according to what the top is made from and how it's made. There are basically three ways to make a top -- carved, pressed solid, and laminated. Nearly all tops are made either from spruce or maple (laminates may include other species). To oversimply a bit, all else equal, each combination of species and method of forming yields a difference in sound, but they're all electric sounds. I wouldn't say that a carved spruce electric such as an L-4 or L-5 is more "acoustic" sounding than a laminated electric such as 175. I'd say it has a different electric sound.

IME/O, floating pickups are actually less coupled to the vibration of the top than set pickups and yield a sound that is more purely the sound of the pickup than set pickups do. To my ears, the plugged in sound of carved-spruce/floater guitar is nothing like its unplugged sound.

In terms of the "premium" of carved vs laminated tops, if we're talking Gibson (where I'm betting overheads, tooling, finance, etc., dwarf direct labor costs, and where finishing is probably the single most labor intensive aspect of building) I doubt the cost of making the top had much to do with the price difference between, say, an L-5 and a 175 when they were still making them, and nothing to do with it in the used market.

Among all the options we're talking about, I prefer laminate tops with set pickups. I arrived at that preference by trying a whole bunch of guitars, not by assuming that one way of making a guitar was better than another a priori.

[Rickco]

The only guitar I really regret selling was my '93 Terada Emperor J. When my L5 (and better) owning friends would come over they all reached for it and never questioned whether it was solid or lam. 5 pc neck was excellent, finish as good as any but I did replace the stock pickups with '57 classics. Being lam fairly feedback resistant. If I was playing a gig Id play that Epi over an L5 everytime.