Ken Parker Archtop

[82Benedetto]

Enjoy the sounds of his instrument. New clip

[derek]

Ken certainly knows how to make an amazing guitar. IIRC, they come at an amazing price also.

[TommyD]

Sorry, don't like the sound of that instrument at all. It's shallow, tinny, and inconsistent. And playing like hell is no way to demonstrate how good an instrument is. Am I missing something?
T/

[82Benedetto]

Sorry, don't like the sound of that instrument at all. It's shallow, tinny, and inconsistent. And playing like hell is no way to demonstrate how good an instrument is. Am I missing something?
T/

Functioning ears?

His guitars are other worldly. If you think that's tinny, you don't like acoustic tone in your archies.

[derek]

Tommy, what kind of speakers are you listening with? Clips always sound weak thru my laptop.

[TommyD]

I always use headphones. You're right, Derek, computer speakers suck!

And a note to Benedetto; Dear 82: I don't much like the acoustic tone in my "archies" (except for a very old ES125).
T/
T/

[82Benedetto]

No offense, but isn't a handmade archtop designed to capture acoustic tone? It's kind of the point as to why players use hollowbodies over solid bodies.

I always use headphones. You're right, Derek, computer speakers suck!

And a note to Benedetto; Dear 82: I don't much like the acoustic tone in my "archies" (except for a very old ES125).
T/
T/

[TommyD]

No offense, but isn't a handmade archtop designed to capture acoustic tone? It's kind of the point as to why players use hollowbodies over solid bodies.

It must be true, otherwise, why would players pay such big bucks for hand made archtop guitars. On the other hand, I've never heard anyone playing on an un-amplified archtop guitar in public (except Freddie Green of Count Basie fame).
I guess it poses the question; why spend all the extra bucks on an instrument that sounds good un-amplified if you're never going to play it that way? (Not to say that if I had unlimited funds I wouldn't be first in line for a $9,000 guitar!).
tommy/

[fivebells]

That's an awkward question, and I think a lot of people dodge it. They're captured by the beauty and heritage attached to an acoustic archtop, but what they really want is an electric sound.

[TommyD]

When you think about it, "electrifying" a guitar gives you, in a sense, a "horn", because of the terrific sustain and the variety of sounds available. It's a whole other animal from acoustic guitars, which only have the sustain that God gave them, and a sound that's part and parcel of the wood they're made from, individual and essentially not reproducible exactly, but only in a broader sense.
I read a book by Julian Bream, wherein he said that one of the reasons that he chose guitar over, say, clarinet, is because he thought that scraping reeds, etc., was too "fiddley". Then he went on to talk about the fact that he kept a micrometer in his guitar case so he could measure string diameters before mounting them. BTW, he always played strings made by that NY husband and wife team (I forgot the brand).
He went bald rather early and was easily recognizable because of it. I saw him on Lexington Avenue around 40th Street one wintery day, and apparently, he had nicked one of his nails, because he was standing next to a wall smoothing it off on one of the bricks! Talk about fiddley!
We're a great bunch, aren't we?
tommy/

[derek]

That's an awkward question, and I think a lot of people dodge it. They're captured by the beauty and heritage attached to an acoustic archtop, but what they really want is an electric sound.

Great observation. I think this is one of the many reasons we have seen traditional archtop players go to laminates. Bruno immediately comes to mind.

[tonedeaf]

Great observation. I think this is one of the many reasons we have seen traditional archtop players go to laminates. Bruno immediately comes to mind.

There must be something more to it -- there are certainly a lot of outstanding players who use them. I can't imagine all of them put their professional life on the line for nostalga.

For me I think some of it is the feel when you sit down with one. I just don't feel like playing the same kind of music when I pick up a solid-body or an acoustic (although when I listen to Mark Knopfler play anything he wants on a solid body I do wonder if there is a difference).

[82Benedetto]

Very well said. That's likely the reason I gravitate towards the solid carved guitars...I like a very acoustic sounding instrument. If I wanted something else, I would have plugged in my Parker and rolled off the tone control.

That's an awkward question, and I think a lot of people dodge it. They're captured by the beauty and heritage attached to an acoustic archtop, but what they really want is an electric sound.

[JohnW400]

There is a difference. As much everybody likes to think they can get their solid bodies to sound like and archtop it isn't so. You can get close.

They are constructed differently. They vibrate differently. Listen to the Jim Hall and Red Mitchell live (for ex.) and you'll hear exactly what I 'm talking about.

He's playing either his 175 or his D'aquisto Jazz line. both with routed pups. There is no mistaking that guitar sound for anything else and no solid body can copy it.

[woyvel]

Tommy D, go to the Ken Parker Archtops website rather than YouTube and I think you'll change your mind.

[derek]

The only problem I have with the Parker/Benedetto/Ribbecke, etc., type archtops is their sound just doesn't translate that well on the bandstand. If you are playing solo, or duo, sure. Throw in drums, keys, horns, and that $20k+ work of art just doesn't get it done very well.

As builders move further away from what John D'A was doing, and more toward a steel string flat top sound (meaning more woody and acoustic properties being emphasized), I think they become less practical for the gigging muso. However, at the prices the charge, the pro musician probably isn't their target market anyway.

[TommyD]

Tommy D, go to the Ken Parker Archtops website rather than YouTube and I think you'll change your mind.

Will do, thanks.
T/

[fivebells]

When you think about it, "electrifying" a guitar gives you, in a sense, a "horn", because of the terrific sustain and the variety of sounds available. It's a whole other animal from acoustic guitars, which only have the sustain that God gave them, and a sound that's part and parcel of the wood they're made from, individual and essentially not reproducible exactly, but only in a broader sense.

I agree, Tommy. In the recent thread https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/every...z-guitars.html I opined that jazz guitarists can't/don't use the horn-like power of their electrified guitars, because they immediately stop sounding like jazz and start sounding like rock or (electric) blues.

I think this is one of the many reasons we have seen traditional archtop players go to laminates. Bruno immediately comes to mind.

For me, it's hard to see the sense of taking a a carved top — shaped by hand, tap-tuned and shaved down to the finest aesthetically judged tolerances, all with the aim of acoustic sound production — and then installing electromagnetic pickups in or on it. That makes it an electric guitar. As JohnW400 mentions in respect of Jim Hall, the result may sound great... but that's an accidental accomplishment, not a designed one.

Does anyone know of a jazz guitarist who records or has recorded with a miked, acoustic archtop?

—————

Further reading: there's a New Yorker article (the magazine, not the guitar) on Ken Parker Archtops Info. Great content on materials, sound design and Parker history, and it ends with an intriguing account of an acoustic comparison session involving a D'Angelico, a D'Aquisto, an L-5 and Parker's latest creation.

[ES125er]

Does anyone know of a jazz guitarist who records or has recorded with a miked, acoustic archtop?

James Emery, of the New York String Trio comes to mind.

I've also seens quite a few videos of Julian Lage playing an acoustic archtop live lately... not sure whether he's recorded with it or not, though.

There's also Derek Bailey.

[medblues]

One reason Jim Hall's tone sounds different may be because he uses low gauge strings and turns the amp up so he can "play softer". It sometimes feels like he is at the edge of starting to feedback. Most other jazz players play with thick strings and do not play their amp so hot. So I don't really think it is the hollowness or the acoustic qualities of his guitars only that distinguishes his tone.

This is a forum that seems to value evidence and comprehensive evaluations. We can record two large sets (5-10) of very high resolution sound clips. One set would have nine archtops and one solid-body guitar. The other would have nine solid-body guitars and one archtop. The task would be to recognize the odd one blindly. My guess is that even if we did not deliberately tried to fool people, nobody can go significantly above chance (10%).

Obviously this test can be done for any number of tone/gear arguments (bone-nut vs plastic nut, humbucker vs single-coil, strat vs tele, tube vs solid state etc).

[82Benedetto]

Ken's guitars aren't meant to be played with a band, though. The guitar is the star....not a support instrument.

[JohnW400]

One reason Jim Hall's tone sounds different may be because he uses low gauge strings and turns the amp up so he can "play softer". It sometimes feels like he is at the edge of starting to feedback. Most other jazz players play with thick strings and do not play their amp so hot.

This is a forum that seems to value evidence and comprehensive evaluations. We can record two large sets (5-10) of very high resolution sound clips. One set would have nine archtops and one solid-body guitar. The other would have nine solid-body guitars and one archtop.
.

We did this already with three or four tunes by Mr Beaumont. He used Telecasters and an Epiphone Reagent. All with flats if I'm not mistaken. He still owes me a beer. (I'll collect it next time I'm in Chicago)

I can tell you from experience that my Super 400 sounds different from My ES-350T plugged into a Carvin Nomad using D'Addario 115W's. They both have humbuckers. Why would I not think that A les Paul would sound different from those two as well? The Super 400 has a woodier sound while the ES350-T sounds closer to a Les Paul.

I do not have enough technical expertise to explain why they are different. And unfortunately I don't think there are any luthiers that post here so I don't have anyone to help me out on this. I´m really hoping that one day some luthier will actually step up and tell us why so that we can put this issue to rest. Hell, Id settle for an article in Guitar Player that explained the why´s.

As far as Jim turning up, most guys do that. Some of the most talked about amps on this forum ar 100 watts and up just for that reason. High amp volume, low guitar volume. Gets you a more acoustic sound.

I'm listening to Howard Aldens solo lp and you can hear it. He gets a great archtop sound out of his 7 string Benedetto.

[frogeye]

Does anyone know of a jazz guitarist who records or has recorded with a miked, acoustic archtop?

Cal Collins recorded 2 interesting solo guitar records on Concord Records some 30 years ago. One of them "By Myself" he recorded with a high end Benedetto archtop using a combination of the magnetic pickup and miking the guitar directly. Sounded great. Unfortunately the recorded (Vinyl) is tough to come by.

[medblues]

We did this already with three or four tunes by Mr Beaumont. He used Telecasters and an Epiphone Reagent. All with flats if I'm not mistaken. He still owes me a beer. (I'll collect it next time I'm in Chicago)

I can tell you from experience that my Super 400 sounds different from My ES-350T plugged into a Carvin Nomad using D'Addario 115W's. They both have humbuckers. Why would I not think that A les Paul would sound different from those two as well? The Super 400 has a woodier sound while the ES350-T sounds closer to a Les Paul.

I do not have enough technical expertise to explain why they are different. And unfortunately I don't think there are any luthiers that post here so I don't have anyone to help me out on this. I´m really hoping that one day some luthier will actually step up and tell us why so that we can put this issue to rest. Hell, Id settle for an article in Guitar Player that explained the why´s.

As far as Jim turning up, most guys do that. Some of the most talked about amps on this forum ar 100 watts and up just for that reason. High amp volume, low guitar volume. Gets you a more acoustic sound.

I'm listening to Howard Aldens solo lp and you can hear it. He gets a great archtop sound out of his 7 string Benedetto.

Where is this thread ? I am fairly new in this forum. Thanks.

[fivebells]

Thanks to ES125er and frogeye for the recommendations. I'll follow them up.

...and I want to double-recommended that New Yorker article I mentioned above. I just read it again, it's a rich resource and fun too.