Wes Montgomery Upside Down L-5 Pickup

[raylinds]

I read that the Gibson Wes Montgomery version of the L5 had only a neck pickup installed upside down. I have been searching to see if I could find a reason for this but can't find anything. Does anyone here know? I would not think it would alter the tone, but am very curious.

Now on a two pickup guitar I have read that that would put the two humbuckers out of phase when both are used, but clearly that is not the intent here. Inquiring minds want to know.

[wintermoon]

They didn't come from the factory upside down.
Wes flipped the pickup on at least one of his single pu guitars to get a slightly brighter sound, the pole pieces are closer to the bridge.
I've seen a fair amount of other guitars through the years that had them flipped, whether or not that was the owner's intent or they had the pickup out at one point and reinstalled them backwards accidentally.

[bluenote61]

Now on a two pickup guitar I have read that that would put the two humbuckers out of phase when both are used, but clearly that is not the intent here. Inquiring minds want to know.

No, flipping of one pu would not cause an out of phase sound. The orientation of the coils winding, i.e. cw or ccw, will still be the same once the pu is turned around getting the screws closer to the bridge.

[Doug B]

Flippin' heck!

[John A.]

I read that the Gibson Wes Montgomery version of the L5 had only a neck pickup installed upside down. I have been searching to see if I could find a reason for this but can't find anything. Does anyone here know? I would not think it would alter the tone, but am very curious.

Now on a two pickup guitar I have read that that would put the two humbuckers out of phase when both are used, but clearly that is not the intent here. Inquiring minds want to know.

Flipping a pickup does not put the pickups on a two pick-up guitar out of phase electrically or magnetically. The only way to do that is to reverse the phase of the wiring (i.e., what an "out of phase switch" does) or reverse the orientation of the magnet in one of the pickups relative to the coil in that pickup. Flipping the pickup puts the screws a little closer the bridge, which might make the pickup a tiny bit brighter, or might have no perceptible difference; it's one of those things you just have to try in order to see what happens. Internet lore says Wes did it to brighten up his guitar, but I don't he was every interviewed on the subject. He often played with quite a bright sound (for jazz, anyway), and when he used 2-pickup guitars he sometimes used the middle position to get even brighter.

[raylinds]

Those who said flipping one pickup would not put it out of phase are, of course, correct. I knew this but had a brain fart! So much misinformation on the interwebs!

I was thinking that, maybe the idea was to get the polepieces closer to the bridge, but it will only move the adjustable pole pieces closer to the bridge. Since both coils function identically other than the height adjustment, it should not alter the tone.

[John A.]

Those who said flipping one pickup would not put it out of phase are, of course, correct. I knew this but had a brain fart! So much misinformation on the interwebs!

I was thinking that, maybe the idea was to get the polepieces closer to the bridge, but it will only move the adjustable pole pieces closer to the bridge. Since both coils function identically other than the height adjustment, it should not alter the tone.

The screws are (or at least can be) closer to the strings than the slugs in the other coil, so they can be a bit louder. If they're also closer to the bridge it could make the overall tone a hair brighter. I haven't tried it myself, though, so I don't know how much difference it really makes (not much, if any, would be my guess).

[raylinds]

The screws are (or at least can be) closer to the strings than the slugs in the other coil, so they can be a bit louder. If they're also closer to the bridge it could make the overall tone a hair brighter. I haven't tried it myself, though, so I don't know how much difference it really makes (not much, if any, would be my guess).

I would think there may be a noticeable difference with the bridge pickup being close to the bridge where flipping it would make it about half the distance to the bridge. The neck being much further from the bridge I can't see how moving it an inch closer would make a perceptible difference, but you don't know until you try.

[John A.]

I would think there may be a noticeable difference with the bridge pickup being close to the bridge where flipping it would make it about half the distance to the bridge. The neck being much further from the bridge I can't see how moving it an inch closer would make a perceptible difference, but you don't know until you try.

The bridge pickup screws are already closer to the bridge on most guitars. Flipping it might darken to tone. But the other dimension to all this is that some pickups have different a number of windings on each coil. If you put whichever has more windings closer the bridge, that could yield a brighter tone (fore reasons having nothing to do with the screws). So it really is one of those things you have to play around with to be sure. But I doubt it's worth the effort.

[Jimmy Mack]

Back and forth, b+f. Here's the deal.

My 335 bridge p/up was too bright and thin. Not being a fan of that, I flipped it around at no cost etc. The bridge p/up tone now, is mellower, woodier but still a bridge p/up tone. I love it.

When I had a neck p/up that was muddy, in a 345, I flipped that one too. Not as much diff, but it did help. I then played with screw/slug heights, and that helped too.

On my L5CES, I have flipped the neck p/up again, to get a little more life out of the neck p/up.

That's me. Don't be afraid to experiment. It's easy, and reversible. You may find something you really like as a result.

[raylinds]

Back and forth, b+f. Here's the deal.

My 335 bridge p/up was too bright and thin. Not being a fan of that, I flipped it around at no cost etc. The bridge p/up tone now, is mellower, woodier but still a bridge p/up tone. I love it.

When I had a neck p/up that was muddy, in a 345, I flipped that one too. Not as much diff, but it did help. I then played with screw/slug heights, and that helped too.

On my L5CES, I have flipped the neck p/up again, to get a little more life out of the neck p/up.

That's me. Don't be afraid to experiment. It's easy, and reversible. You may find something you really like as a result.

I'm glad someone with experience provided some information. I'm glad it worked for you.

[Woody Sound]

or they had the pickup out at one point and reinstalled them backwards accidentally.

A GC repair tech did that to one of mine. Doh!

[lawson-stone]

Wouldn't flipping the pickup on an L5ces put the pole pieces closer to where they are on an ES175?

[Bobby Timmons]

Flipping the neck hum where the screws are closer to the bridge does make it slightly brighter and noticeably cluck-ier. As opposed to more round normally.

[palindrome]

According to Dimarzio at least, whether orientation matters depends on the pickup:

Does it matter which direction I install my pickup? | DiMarzio

[Jimmy blue note]

Pickups have vastly differing outputs and effects of windings and magnet types. Many "jazzy" pickups have a lower output and players tend to lower the output even more by positioning them lower (farther from the strings), for a warmer more integrated sound.
I've found that the higher the output, the more I'm going to notice changes like polepiece positioning. PAF set lower, not so much if even undetectable to me. If you roll off the low pass on your amp, even less.
I hear a MUCH greater difference in tone by the tiniest adjustment in the pickup's height.
But that's just me.

[Jimmy blue note]

A GC repair tech did that to one of mine. Doh!

Nice to see those guys in the big box repair department have that extraordinary eye for detail.
Maybe they got their training in Australia. Nashville tuning. Down Under pickup placement.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Don't be afraid to experiment. It's easy, and reversible. You may find something you really like as a result.

You can also alter the tone by raising or lowering the adjustable poles. Combining this with the ability to turn the P/U around offers even more control over your sound with those that will respond.

I also find that there are certain areas along the strings between the end of the neck and the bridge in which tone changes noticeably for picking locations within a few mm of each other. On my Ibanez archtop, the tone gets noticeably deeper and fuller in the first few mm between the fingerboard and the single set P/U. My Eastman with set P/U has a similar spot a few mm further toward its P/U, and my big Eastman with floater gets its deepest tone picking a few mm over the fingerboard.

Rotating the P/U to put the adjustable poles at that spot, lowering it a good bit, and raising the screws a tiny bit at a time lets you dial in the best tone if the guitar and pickup are responsive to those adjustments. Not all are, but it’s worth the effort to try. I find that picking a mm or two toward the neck from the screws usually gives the richest tone.

[raylinds]

I am learning a lot from this thread- I love this forum!

[jim777]

For pickups with one side slugs and the other side screws (like most Gibson pickups and PAF types), the general assumption is that there are different numbers of winds on the two coils, so swapping their orientation can get you a different sound. When you see a pickup with slugs or those hex head slugs in the top (like most DiMarzios) the assumption is the coils are identically wound so it doesn't matter which way you install them.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ No, most humbuckers are symmetrically wound, they're not asymmetrically wound just because 1 coil is slugs and 1 is screws. For example, all Duncan hums are symmetrically wound. Some winders out there like Dmz or vintage stuff have some asymmetrically wound hums but it's not the rule.

[jim777]

^ No, most humbuckers are symmetrically wound, they're not asymmetrically wound just because 1 coil is slugs and 1 is screws. For example, all Duncan hums are symmetrically wound. Some winders out there like Dmz or vintage stuff have some asymmetrically wound hums but it's not the rule.

Your post is the exact opposite of what I've heard for the last 50 years, and often the explanation for why original PAFs sound different from one another. And I certainly wasn't saying "every single one" when I said "the general assumption is". Lots of guitarists have turned humbuckers around for a different sound - if the coils are identical is that different sound imaginary? If it's real, what are you saying is the cause?

[raylinds]

I have been doing a lot of research about vintage Gibson PAFs, including coil symmetry and have found some very interesting information. It seems that there are differences in PAF pickups from different periods and a lot of that has to do with the different winding machines that Gibson used during the 50s. It seems that there was usually a certain level of mismatch, whether intentional or not, though not enough to be what modern pickup makers would consider a true asymmetrical humbucker, but it did and does affect the tone.

Most of the information I am quoting is from Throbak Pickups on their PAFHUMBUCKER.COM site. Throbak owns and uses the vintage Gibson winding machines and provided a lot of information about them that I am going to provide here, but I encourage people to visit the PAF site for additional details. The winding machines in chronological order of use:

Slug-101 Winder
While researching the machine I learned that the original hand winding mechanism likely dates from the 1930’s. Considering the age and large size of the winding mechanism I think it likely wound the large diagonal pickups found in some 1940 ES-300 guitars. It would also follow that this same machine also wound Charlie Christian pickups of the same era.

In the 1950’s the Slug-101 machine was converted to an auto traverse pickup winder by the addition of a wooden wire guide and tension mechanism made by Gibson employee Glen Seybert. The design of the traverse incorporates Gibson parts of the day such as cream strap buttons for wire guides. Powered by a separate electric motor, the traverse mechanism of the Slug-101 winder has a unique hand-made drive that uses no cam but has similar action to a lobeless cam wire traverse. This one-of-a-kind mechanism creates a uniform hour glass shaped coil.

Made to wind 4 slug PAF bobbins, the fixtures cannot accept screw coil PAF bobbins. The machine was likely quickly converted as a means of increasing production of the new PAF pickup by retrofitting an existing machine that had fallen out of use. Interestingly the machine came with tailstock parts and a machined fixture for screw bobbins but the necessary tailstock was never mounted to the machine. Because of the machine’s ability to only wind slug coils, PAF’s made with these coils were matched with screw coils wound on the other PAF coil winding machines at Gibson.

Due to the slug bobbin only capability of the Slug-101 machine, its unique traverse travel and turn per layer by default creates a PAF with a mismatch in coil geometry and turn per layer when paired with any other PAF screw coil. Tonally this creates a PAF with a bit more low end clarity than a PAF that has both slug and screw coils wound on the same machine. The fact that the Slug-101 machine has no auto stop means an offset between slug and screw coils in an assembled PAF is likely.

Leesona 102
With it’s easily adjustable traverse and 3 station design the Leesona 102 was likely used for not only PAF’s but other Gibson pickup models that did not already have dedicated fixtures and machines. The only down side to the Leesona 102 from an operator’s standpoint is it takes most of the day to change the turn per layer gears. However, the standard gears that came with the machine have the perfect combination for putting 42awg wire most efficiently on a PAF bobbin. Right out of the box the Leesona 102 was more production friendly than either the KZ/LP-115 or the Slug-101 winders.

The Leesona 102 and 102B have the distinction of being the only Gibson PAF winders with a lobed cam. This means that in theory it distributes wire much more evenly than their non-lobed counterparts, the LP/KZ-115 and the Slug-101. However, due to the Leesona 102’s widely adjustable traverse of 3” to 1/32”, when it is dialed down to the 1/4” traverse of a PAF, the internal play of the adjustable mechanism leaves a measurable amount of “slop” in the traverse travel that is inherent to the machine’s design. The result is PAF coils that are evenly wound and rounder in tone than if they were wound on a machine without the signature traverse “slop” of the Leesona 102 and 102B.

KZ/LP-115
Made by Geo-Stevens, the original sales records still exist for this machine showing it was ordered by Kalamazoo based industrial supply house Allen Electric & Equipment in February 1950. Date codes on the electric motor also indicate it was replaced in 1956. Gibson photographs from the 1950’s show that at least two similar KZ/LP-115 machines were used to wind pickups in Kalamazoo. The soft aluminum fixtures of the KZ/LP-115 still show wear marks from both P-90 and PAF bobbins, confirming its use as both a PAF and P90 pickup winder.

Still operational today at ThroBak Electronics in Grand Rapids Michigan winding the ThroBak KZ-115 P.A.F. repro, the KZ/LP-115 retains the original Gibson made, 50’s era wire guides, bobbin fixtures, traverse gears and non-adjustable lobeless cam. This machine is truly a time capsule of Gibson’s 1950’s pickup winding process.

The KZ/LP-115 combines fixtures that limit the wire traverse with a lobeless cam. This combination limits the coil wire travel much shorter than the .25” of a PAF bobbin. A lobeless cam has the important distinction of not compensating the traverse when it changes direction making for a less uniform coil with more scatter. Additionally, the much shorter traverse travel creates what we have dubbed a “center focused” coil. Although the turn per layer gearing is optimal for 42awg wire, (virtually the same as Leesona 102 TPL), this center focused coil is a much fatter coil for fewer turns of wire compared to the Leesona 102 PAF coils. Combined with it’s long start lead, KZ/LP-115 coils have added scatter giving these PAF coils some of the low end warmth of a hand scattered pickup coil. The fatter coils also mean a 7.9k PAF pickup entirely fills the bobbins creating a wider magnetic aperture for this resistance. The lack of an autostop counter means that PAF’s wound on this machine would have a potential for higher coil offsets.

Meteor 301
Although the ME-301 design dates back to the 1950’s they are still in use as humbucker pickup winders at Gibson. However, Gibson has since removed the old 50’s era Meteor wire guides to pack even more bobbins on these machines. So why keep the ME-301’s? One simple reason, efficiency. A Swiss made machine, it is full of innovations that speed it’s operation. The ME-301 is today commonly found in use and for sale due to its popularity. One benefit of the ME-301 is the quick change chuck system that allows for fast fixture swaps for different pickup models.

But beyond efficiency, what is the important distinction of the ME-301 when it comes to winding PAF coils? The ME-301 is different in that it adjusts turn per layer by means of a large dial by which you set the wire gauge. So for a PAF coil you simply turn the crank until the needle on the dial points to 42awg wire and the turn per layer is automatically set to the most efficient turn per layer for 42 awg wire. But not so fast! As it turns out the 42awg setting for the ME-301 is 35% lower than optimal for 42awg and all ME-301’s are off by this 35%. Why are they all this way? I have no idea, but they are. One further wrinkle is if the machine is adjusted improperly the “friction disk” that controls the turn per layer will prematurely wear causing as much as an additional 15% difference from the optimal turn per layer.


The difference in turn per layer makes coils wound with the ME-301 instantly identifiable when repairing a vintage pickup. These signature coils appear in vintage P90’s, PAF’s, mini humbuckers with ultimately Kalamazoo made T-Tops being exclusively wound with the ME-301. Conventional wisdom is the difference in turn per layer was by design but the reality is if you simply follow the instructions for the machine you get this distinct turn per layer. It’s simply a practical result of the machine, nothing more complicated than that.

Due to the combination of low tension, 35% lower than optimal turn per layer and very accurate traverse, comparable to a lobed cam, the ME-301 produces accurately wound coils with little scatter that are fuller than a coil wound on the Leesona 102. It is a combination different than the other PAF winders. Tonally it makes for a slightly warmer low end than a pickup wound on the Leesona 102.

I think this information goes a long way towards explaining why there is no definitive PAF pickup.