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My bad.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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10-11-2023 07:35 AM
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I don't think it's a lazy advice because transcription is hard. I could transcribe whole choruses fairly early on. Most people have transcription experience before they come to jazz. It is a lazy advice because it's not at all obvious how one goes from transcribing a solo to incorporating ideas, phrases in their actual playing. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Also I think it's a HUGE if to assume that someone who is new to jazz have good enough fretboard knowledge to play the changes to simple standards (even if they were stadium filling pros, lol).
I think the bottle neck for most new starters is the knowledge of the instrument. The ears instantly improve once the student is able to play harmonically meaningful lines as opposed to random noodling. It's also very difficult to improve time feel if navigating the fretboard is taking 90% of the attention span.Last edited by Tal_175; 10-11-2023 at 08:37 AM.
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I had personally gotten stuck by shapes and one finger per fret systems for decades.
Watching Django, Wes and Thal playing freed my left hand.
More streaching, sliding, shifting, more 1 2 3 fingering, thinking more about notes than shapes and positions, the pinky for extensions or kind of violin fingering (that's very rare).
Some will understand it.
Allan Holdsworth would understand it.
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Not sure why you threw Joe Pass in there (he was a highly proficient reader and pro studio musician), but anyway… Originally Posted by nyc chaz
Let me repeat, I did not say people shouldn’t learn to read music. I think they should. But if we’re listing the three top priorities for someone who is already competent on guitar and at some other form of music to work on in order to learn Jazz specifically, I wouldn’t put advancing one’s reading skills on that list.
But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t belong on a longer list, and if you can’t read at all, to the point where you can’t decipher a chart at all, you need to address that. OTOH, if you’re one of the many guitarists who can kinda sorta read but it takes a while, that’s actually enough to get by to work on jazz-specific things. You can put “become a stone-cold sight-reader” on the list of the top 3 things you need to work on in order to be a working pro musician. But I don’t think that’s part of the premise of this thread.
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Did i say Pass couldn't read?I was saying most people are not going to have a super successful jazz career like him so if they are going to succeed in playing jazz as a career reading can only help them gain the tools and knowledge necessary to succeed.For myself learning to be a proficient reader as a teen was the best thing i ever did.There was a prevalent notion back in the stone age that reading wasn't necessary or it somehow diminished your soulfullness which was just nonsense.Let's just agree to disagree. Originally Posted by John A.
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I also misunderstood you and thought you said Joe Pass couldn't read.
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Rip them off shamelessly, transpose to all keys and shoehorn them when practicing tunes everywhere you can Originally Posted by Tal_175
should eventually become part of your playing, and if it doesn’t, meh, wasn’t mean to be.
To be brutally honest, the majority of guitarists don’t really know their scales, definitely don’t know their arpeggios, struggle with time feel and can’t read. It’s a lot of work! But it doesn’t have to be done away from jazz.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
It was my understanding that when it comes to guitar and learning jazz guitar, "most people" started out on blues or rock and can't read musical notation, and thus don't have any transcription experience. Now I was raised learning to play classical violin but in my circle of friends and jam buddies I was the only one that had any formal musical training prior to picking up a guitar and learning Autum Leaves.
(and such musical training helped me advance more quickly then my other-20-year-old buddies, but also lead to me sounding too much like a robot without much soul or feeling).
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Given Christian's pre-conditions, and with the disclaimer that these reflect my own technical-educational limitations:
1. Listen a lot, to a lot--for specific repertory and for patterns.
2. Play with others, with #1 in mind and to imitate and steal shamelessly. Also for the pleasure of it.
3. Sit on the sofa and practice (tunes or techniques or licks), noodle, and explore at leisure, with or without instructional materials. Because if playing the guitar is not pleasurable in itself, what's the point? (I sat on the sofa last night after midnight, seeing how many ways I could get through "Black Orpheus." It was fun as well as useful.)
I know that the above apply to more than jazz, because that's how I've learned every kind of music I've explored. But then, I'm an amateur and social player with just enough public-playing experience to know when to sit out and not embarrass myself and annoy my bandmates.
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Like I said earlier, what works for me is to find short phrases (say 2 beats long) and apply them to chords or scales in various ways and combine them. I don't really like inserting a bar or two long lines in my solos. The longer lines are useful however in learning how to put short phrases together but I do believe that the jazz language lies in small phrases. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Yes, I think the ability to quickly access the relevant scales and arpeggios around every note on the fretboard is hugely important when working on language.
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The word transcription commonly used in two senses. This comes up every now and then on the forum. I assumed that Jeff originally meant lifting music by ear when he said transcription. I was using the term in that sense. Whether one writes it down or memorizes what's learned by ear is I think a separate issue in this context. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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I think there is jazz grammar and jazz vocabulary. Grammar is like how to put words together in such a way that the "sentences" outline the harmony and voice lead (or do something else). Jazz grammar can be learned conceptually and it shares similarities with the grammar of other styles of music. But the jazz language, ie the words, is where the stylistic elements live (rhythm, phrasing, placement, chromaticism, density, tension etc.).
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Seemed that way to me, but if not, apologies for the misinterpretation Originally Posted by nyc chaz
I don't think that's the premise of the thread. I think the premise is "how to get started." Originally Posted by nyc chaz
That's great. More knowledge and skill is always better than less. So for you, as someone with a foundation on the instrument asking questions about how to start learning to play jazz, it would seem like "learn to read" is not the answer since you already know how. That's why in the present context it's not on my top 3 list. Originally Posted by nyc chaz
I've never said or thought that (and have repeatedly said the opposite in this thread). So if you're disagreeing with me, you may be misreading what I've written. Originally Posted by nyc chaz
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Only for right handed players :
1. Pick with the nose and fret with the toes
2. Pick with the left hand and fret with the nose
3. Pick with the left hand and fret with the right hand
Now a third thread has to be created to know if the toes belong to the right or the left foot.
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Heads, shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes
Heads, shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes
And eyes and ears and mouth and nose.....
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I totally disagree... Where your sources come from ? Who wrote that ? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I'm more experienced than you, I've been more experienced than everyone here since my international tour all around the web.
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if I had these as preconditions I wouldn’t teach anyone haha! (Except people who don’t actually need me.) Originally Posted by RLetson
But it’s cool, I don’t say these things to be horrible, but not knowing that stuff makes things harder (unless you have a really good ear and you practice hours a day). But I don’t think you have to go into some sort of terrifying scale boot camp before you can learn a blues. Actually I hate that idea.
Knowing scales and arps makes it easier to pick up music by ear, quiet as it’s kept
there’s of course a reason why many rock guitarists associate this level of command of the instrument with jazz. But for me this has nothing to do with learning jazz itself - it’s instrumental mastery that can be applied to any avenue of music. (I certainly don’t regard it as ‘theory’, although that’s what people call it often.)
It just so happens jazz sort of necessitates it because the piano and horns rule the roost?
Anyway - we can pick it up on the way!
Reading. I actually think it’s a failure of teaching to not give a student some confidence with puzzling out notation, simply to know how it works. This is easy to do when students are kids, much harder later. I feel passionately about this. This doesn’t have to be on the guitar even. I’m not talking about people being great sight readers, but that players are actually intimidated by notation full stop is a failure of teaching. Musical literacy is a life skill.
It’s not hard to understand staff notation well enough to get started. The rest will only come with practice anyway….
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This is so big. I didn't start reading until I had been playing the guitar for 10 years, and I always regret it. I still don't consider myself a good reader. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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OK let's be serious now about reading.
Playing then reading is more useful than the opposite.
Everyone learns how to speak before learning how to read.
Why is it the opposite or kind of when it's about a foreign language or music ?
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I have what amounts to a disability when it comes to standard notation, to which I was introduced around age 12, back when American public schools still had full-time music teachers. I can construe the notes and such, but they don't "read" the way words do, and I never had to connect the spots with the kind of physical-aural feedback you get with, say, a keyboard. (On the other hand, I have a piano-playing friend who can't get off the page--"See a spot, hit a key," he says.) Originally Posted by Christian Miller
And in any case, I seem to be terrible at alternate notation systems (which includes most of math--my "number sense" sucks). The compensation is that I'm very, very good at words (once could read a couple of dead languages), and I have a more than decent ear and memory for melodies and harmonies. And I can follow, say, a Real Book chart with chords well enough to keep up with new-to-me material--after I've heard it through once or twice. I can even follow the contours of the melody, if the chart is tidy enough (four bars to the line) so I can have an idea of its structure.
I stuck that disclaimer in there because I realize that my situation is a bit odd--sixty-some years playing guitar, picking up bits and pieces of theory (stacking thirds, inversions, and such), but still at around the Week One level of reading notation. If I could redesign my life, I would arrange for my parents to have owned a piano. Then Miss Diamond (seventh-grade music teacher) would have had a bit more to work with in the technical-skills department. But I suspect I'd still wind up a mediocre sight-reader.Last edited by RLetson; 10-11-2023 at 03:51 PM.
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Yup. When I was a kid I took classical lessons at a neighborhood music school. I also took a separate class where kids on all instruments learned things like different clefs, scales, key signatures, and arps. It was called “theory". In college, the same (ish) material (plus other stuff like modes and figured bass) was taught in a class called "musicianship”. The classes where we learned counterpoint and composition were called “theory". I honestly think "musicianship” is probably the best name for all of it. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Bingo. Sight reading complicated stuff well enough to perform is hard. Learning notes and chord symbols really shouldn’t be. There’s a basic, straight forward logic to it that’s too often made to seem more difficult than it really is. I think the same is true of basic functional harmony. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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The question posed here is evocative in its simplicity and we all have something to say on it.
After thinking about this for a few days, it struck me that there’s perhaps an antecedent question that might inform the answers for each person who ponders the initial question:
Why am I doing this, what’s the context for one’s practicing to learn to play jazz guitar?
My context, for the past several years, has been participating in open jazz jam sessions at a variety of venues near where I live. I have limited time to practice, and I don’t gig more than once or twice a year. So, given that context my three things to focus on have become these:
1) Learning tunes - This has been mentioned before, and for me (and as I’ve also heard from some teachers) much of what one needs to learn to play jazz is in the tunes. This involves learning to play them but also listening to how others play them. Within my context, learning tunes enables me to participate in spontaneous musicking with friends and strangers alike.
2) Playing with others - This has been said before, too, so nothing new here, but there is variety in emphasis. I am now practicing for a gig next week, one of just a couple I do each year, mostly by invitation from people I meet at jam sessions. But practicing for a gig, in my rather limited experience, involves learning tunes more carefully, it’s more formal than a jam session, the structure and time are predetermined since there’ll be an audience. Doing a gig can be a fun and valuable experience (I was a gigging musician decades ago), but it’s not really what I want to do now. So I play informally with others at least once a week, sometimes 5 or 6 times a month at 3 to 5 venues. Each venue has a combination of regulars and newcomers or guests. When there are regulars, there are preferred tunes and styles (bebop in one, hard bop in another, newer tunes, older standards, bossa here, funky or bluesy there, ballads or up tempo, vocal or instrumental, etc.). Beyond repertoire, at the places with a core of regulars there is a sense of community, and playing music together is part of a broader social experience that also involves eating and drinking together. The venues that are my albeit limited point of references are all small Mom and Pop shops, bars or cafes, that also host live shows and events in addition to jam sessions once or twice a week. So learning to play tunes well enough to walk into a jam session at any of these venues helps me to engage to play with others and engage in social relations, meet new people, and have fun. I have also noticed that, once in a blue moon when I am in Tokyo or another large city, knowing common tunes helps to be welcomed as a stranger.
3) Listening - This sort of encompasses much of what has been said in this thread so far. For one, listening helps me to learn tunes. When a tune that I’m not familiar with is called at a session, and if I enjoy playing it, I’ll work on it for next time. That work involves picking ten versions and listening to how other, more seasoned, old and new, players approach the tune. It’s something like ear training, I suppose, but without transcribing. Just listening (in fact, this is more or less the only regular listening I do these days). But there’s another dimension to listening, which is while on stage playing with others, especially in a spontaneous open jam session, I need to keep my ears open for what and how others are playing and try to engage in and contribute to a group sound. Since it’s not a set group like a rehearsed band, unexpected combinations of people and personalities, and instruments and sounds, happen.
In retrospect, three points are difficult to pin down; collectively this thread offers many points to focus on.
So, if I may, I’d like to add an honorable mention, which is also something that’s been discussed here:
4) Reading - Reading in my context, first and foremost, involves reading a chord chart on-the-fly. The better I can do that, the more I can play with others. This is especially the case with vocalists, who often bring their own charts in their preferred keys. Learning to read chord charts on-the-fly encompasses several other points raised in this thread (e.g., using voice leading while comping). Secondary to that on-the-fly reading, for me, is learning to read staff notation well enough to learn tunes. I know many prefer to learn tunes by ear off records, but I don’t have the patience for that. And beyond that personal lack, for me reading charts enables systematic comparison among versions of tunes that others have taken the time to transcribe. For example, there is much talk of the old “Real Book” having in a sense codified one version of a tune among many (some of which appear to be “inaccurate”). Then there’s the new “Real Book,” which “corrected” some tunes from the old editions, and also worked out copyright issues. In Japan, we use a similar book known as the “Jazz Standard Bible.” This was recently updated adding some new tunes, but also deleting those for which the rights could not be obtained. There’s also other, older, books here (e.g. “Handbook of Jazz Standards”) so part of learning in my case involves studying how different versions of tunes in different times and places have been published. (Then there’s iReal Pro, which is the subject of another lengthy discussion on repertoire.) Comparing charts is important for jam sessions, at least in the venues I frequent, since it’s normal to read charts on stage. But even if there are books or apps there are different editions and different generations of players that may be familiar with other versions (not to mention custom charts for vocalists, or charts for Japanese players who studied at Berklee back in the day and still refer to the old “Real Book”). Perhaps this is more of an academic point, but reading notation competently helps me to enjoy making such comparisons.
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You may observe with a search the popular body of advice representing the "how to" state of the art best practices for everything about guitar including jazz guitar playing, comprising the importance of various knowledge and abilities, and the sequence of their acquisition and development.
I taught myself to play the guitar before this great body of wisdom was available to me, and I find it fascinating that I vehemently disagree with virtually all "how to" accepted wisdom now promulgated about how to learn and play the guitar, including jazz guitar.
On the other hand, it's not uncommon for individuals' advice to reflect the advisors' personal paths rather than the great body of accepted wisdom. That is how I'll offer my pick three.
1 - Really play by ear exclusively from day one
Nothing verbal (no names of things, no books, no lessons, no methods). Nothing numeric (no Roman numerals, intervals, scale degrees, neck positions). Nothing visual (no reading, no symbols, no shapes, no patterns, no key boards). This also means no written transcriptions, memory of sound of music only.
2 - Learn soloing first, constructing chords will emerge from that later on
Soloing first is the best way to grasp rhythm and song form. This should be done by accompanying oneself by the song in your head, not music playback. Soloing first makes building chords natural and easy, later on.
3 - No amplification/electronics for at least the first five years
Focus on learning to hear music and play the guitar first, performing with amps later on. Practice with 100% efficiency, no time wasted tone chasing.
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There's a guy on my other forum who is against learning any theory. I think he's in his 40s so he's been playing for decades. He's terrible. He doesn't even grasp how to play modally within a tonal center. I'm not so sure how realistic of a plan that is for success. Lots of kids have a guitar in their room and dick around by ear. They all suck lol. How exactly are you supposed to learn anything, unless you're extremely talented? Originally Posted by pauln
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Who knows how exactly are you supposed to learn anything? I decided to do it all by ear, so the external indirect modes of learning through verbal, numeric, and visual proxies weren't part of it. I continue to be extremely grateful to have discovered that music is intrinsically self revealing and teaches itself to me.
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