Easy Diatonic Standards

[RickyHolden]

Thanks for any ideas!

[AllanAllen]

Softly As In a Morning Sunrise is all C-

Satin Doll and Lets Get Lost aren't too rough either, but are not strictly diatonic.

Don't skimp on the blues, something smooth like Bill Jennings Glide On

[pamosmusic]

All of Me is pretty doggone close.

Beautiful Love, maybe. It Could Happen to You is close. A Train mostly.

[ragman1]

I'm sure he could manage the odd non-diatonic chord, couldn't he? He might learn something.

[PMB]

Richard Rodgers was the king of diatonicism. Falling In Love With Love and My Romance are two examples off the top of my head that contain no accidentals in their melodies while many others have a single instance (Blue Moon, I Didn't Know What Time It Was, My Funny Valentine).

[pamosmusic]

Fly Me to the Moon

[pamosmusic]

Nice. And it bears mentioning that even the most diatonic jazz tune will not be 100% diatonic. Autumn Leaves has the D7 and the B7, and the chained 2-5s in the second half. All of Me with the secondary dominants. Fly Me to the Moon with the major and minor dominants like Autumn Leaves. Etc.

So even a strictly diatonic tune will require him to know where the chords are going.

[ragman1]

Haha, no because the problem is that he's been trying to jump too far ahead without grasping the basics, what is a chord, what is a key etc. Classic modern learner, bamboozled by too many you tube gurus. I wanna use these tunes to get him soloing, so want it to be diatonic as the 'rules' are easy to explain.

Plus it's easier for me also as I ain't exactly Joe Pass at the moment.

But I do get u, planning on doing blue bossa down the line as a first venture away from the diatonic concept.

Well, when you said 'very green' I thought: don't do jazz. But you know him better than we do and obviously he can get round basic stuff otherwise we wouldn't be here. And if he can do basic stuff surely he can intrude a chord from a different key or something? Or change a minor into a secondary dom?

I mean, are you saying he can only play vanilla stuff in C? What can he actually do?

But I'll tell you one thing that might be even more important... RHYTHM!

How is he on that?

[AllanAllen]

BLUES BLUES BLUES

Don’t do autumn Leaves, don’t do Blue Bossa. Do blues. Do a bouncy major blues, do a slow minor blues, do an 8 bar blues.

There honestly is no reason to move on until he can hit the RB changes to Nows The Time. It’s got the half diminished, a couple ii Vs and a quick IV.

If they can’t do that don’t screw things up with standards.

[pamosmusic]

BLUES BLUES BLUES

and

But I'll tell you one thing that might be even more important... RHYTHM!

How is he on that?

These are both good advice. The blues is a great place to start, but especially since Allan mentions what sounds like a jazz blues (w half diminished chord etc), then it’s worth considering that, the blues is no more diatonic than most of the standards mentioned here. The shorter form is easier to navigate and he’ll be knocking out about 40% of the jazz repertoire after he gets through three keys, but still. Standards are still fun and useful.

Which brings me to Rag … it’s worth asking WHAT sounds bad when your friend plays. Does your friend sound aimless because he can’t navigate changes? Or does your friend sound aimless because dull rhythms and bad time always sound aimless?

[Bobby Timmons]

If someone's too inept to handle a chord or 2 that aren't diatonic, then they're too inept to play jazz in the first place. Making everything diatonic won't help anything. What's the difference between playing a diatonic minor 7 or a secondary dominant like rag said? For soloing, for temporary elementary simplification purposes you can play diatonically over chords that deviate from the key center. But only playing diatonically isn't jazz. So..

I'm inclined to agree with AA.

[pamosmusic]

If someone's too inept to handle a chord or 2 that aren't diatonic, then they're too inept to play jazz in the first place. Making everything diatonic won't help anything. What's the difference between playing a diatonic minor 7 or a secondary dominant like rag said? For soloing, for temporary elementary simplification purposes you can play diatonically over chords that deviate from the key center. But only playing diatonically isn't jazz. So..

I'm inclined to agree with AA.

No one (with a very few exceptions) can play chord changes when they first start. You have to learn, and it’s easier to learn when the changes are closely related (mostly diatonic).

So maybe we’re looking at this the wrong way. What if he hears himself playing over something essentially diatonic and doesn’t realize he’s not playing the changes so he thinks he’s mastered it. Maybe the solution is to give him what he wants.

Hand him Stablemates and Fee Fi Fo Fum and let him fall flat on his face. Maybe then he’ll let you walk him through All of Me and actually work on the changes.

Or maybe not.

[Irishmuso]

Hello hope all u jazzy gees r all good.

Ok, here's the deal...

I'm trying to work with a friend who is a very green piano player,to get jamming with him over some backing tracks for simple standards.

If he's that green, I'm afraid it sounds like you're trying to get him to run before he can walk; it won't help him and it certainly won't help you. Why no let him select tunes that he wants to play, and he'll have no option but to go and learn them - like everybody else.

[Bobby Timmons]

No one (with a very few exceptions) can play chord changes when they first start. You have to learn, and it’s easier to learn when the changes are closely related (mostly diatonic).

So maybe we’re looking at this the wrong way. What if he hears himself playing over something essentially diatonic and doesn’t realize he’s not playing the changes so he thinks he’s mastered it. Maybe the solution is to give him what he wants.

Hand him Stablemates and Fee Fi Fo Fum and let him fall flat on his face. Maybe then he’ll let you walk him through All of Me and actually work on the changes.

Or maybe not.

Bruh. All of me is 0% easier if you change all the chords to be diatonic than the way it is. The chords are already easy af.

[pamosmusic]

Bruh. All of me is 0% easier if you change all the chords to be diatonic than the way it is. The chords are already easy af.

Not sure what you mean.

I don’t think anyone suggested changing the chords to All of Me? It’s already about as diatonic as a jazz tune gets.

I already mentioned earlier that even the most “diatonic” jazz standard has secondary dominants and stuff (even most iterations of a blues).

[Bobby Timmons]

The very first thing you said was chord changes are hard to play. Which suggests you're implying the chords themselves would be easier if they were all diatonic instead of deviating from the key center. Which isn't true. Not being capable of including black notes in the chord progression is like 3 year old beginner. How beginner is this guy?

[pamosmusic]

The very first thing you said was chord changes are hard to play. Which suggests you're implying the chords themselves would be easier if they were all diatonic instead of deviating from the key center.

Dm7 - G7 - C major is all diatonic. But in jazz you don’t just play a C major scale. You have to play the changes. So that’s a new skill for most people.

And chord changes that are closely related … Dm7 G7 C … tend to be easier to navigate than chord changes that have remote relationships … B D7 G Bb7 Eb etc …

Or am I wrong about that?

[Bobby Timmons]

And so, what? Don't practice outlining any chords? Don't practice any chromaticism? Even if it's extremely simple? You have to get used to that somehow to begin to play jazz.

[pamosmusic]

The very first thing you said was chord changes are hard to play. Which suggests you're implying the chords themselves would be easier if they were all diatonic instead of deviating from the key center. Which isn't true. Not being capable of including black notes in the chord progression is like 3 year old beginner. How beginner is this guy?

Also “chords that are closely related” isn’t the same thing as “no black notes.” C major E7 A7 and D minor are extremely closely related and tonal, even though E7 and A7 contain one black key each. They’d be easier than improvising over — say — C and Gb … which has three black keys?

Again …. Maybe I’m missing something.

[pamosmusic]

And so, what? Don't practice outlining any chords? Don't practice any chromaticism? Even if it's extremely simple? You have to get used to that somehow to begin to play jazz.

You seem to enjoy arguing with yourself.

[Bobby Timmons]

Also “chords that are closely related” isn’t the same thing as “no black notes.” C major E7 A7 and D minor are extremely closely related and tonal, even though E7 and A7 contain one black key each. They’d be easier than improvising over — say — C and Gb … which has three black keys?

Again …. Maybe I’m missing something.

I literally already said that and it's the first post of mine that you began to disagree with. Lol! Are you ok?

Bruh. All of me is 0% easier if you change all the chords to be diatonic than the way it is. The chords are already easy af.

[pamosmusic]

You said if they’re too inept to handle chord changes, they’re too inept to handle jazz.

I said … maybe it’s okay if they can’t handle chord changes at first and it’s easier to learn when the chord changes are … um …. Easier.

[Bobby Timmons]

I said about the same thing. Arguing that completely diatonic tunes aren't necessary because there are already tunes with very simple changes even if they deviate from the key center a bit. Yet, you're mad and resorting to logical fallacies every post for some reason.

If someone's too inept to handle a chord or 2 that aren't diatonic, then they're too inept to play jazz in the first place. Making everything diatonic won't help anything. What's the difference between playing a diatonic minor 7 or a secondary dominant like rag said? For soloing, for temporary elementary simplification purposes you can play diatonically over chords that deviate from the key center. But only playing diatonically isn't jazz. So..

I'm inclined to agree with AA.

[pamosmusic]

Well part of the deal is that I think y’all are misinterpreting what is being asked for. Probably because the terminology in the OP is a little confused. Diatonic would usually mean white key or whatever … but both the tunes he cited as examples contain secondary dominants. As do all the tunes people suggested after the fact, including the blues. So I assumed that was a given.

[Bobby Timmons]

The op chimed in once saying completely diatonic would be easier to explain.

Haha, no because the problem is that he's been trying to jump too far ahead without grasping the basics, what is a chord, what is a key etc. Classic modern learner, bamboozled by too many you tube gurus. I wanna use these tunes to get him soloing, so want it to be diatonic as the 'rules' are easy to explain.

Plus it's easier for me also as I ain't exactly Joe Pass at the moment.

But I do get u, planning on doing blue bossa down the line as a first venture away from the diatonic concept.

The problem is, I don't think there are any completely diatonic tunes. There are only tunes with diatonic root movement.

I still say AA's advice is the best.

BLUES BLUES BLUES

Don’t do autumn Leaves, don’t do Blue Bossa. Do blues. Do a bouncy major blues, do a slow minor blues, do an 8 bar blues.

There honestly is no reason to move on until he can hit the RB changes to Nows The Time. It’s got the half diminished, a couple ii Vs and a quick IV.

If they can’t do that don’t screw things up with standards.

You can phrase with blues scale and then learn to bring in more of the chord changes. Plus blues is really foundational.

Another thing you could do is just make up exercises if you want an all diatonic progression.

2 - 5 - 1 - 1
2 - 5 - 1 - 6
3 - 6 - 2 - 5
4 - 7 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 5 - 1
etc.