Easy Diatonic Standards

[Christian Miller]

What key is the first 16 bars of So What in?

D minor. (The mode is D dorian.)

In the same way as I'd say, the key of this blues is F major, even if the first chord is F7. No one I know says 'blues in F7' or 'blues in F mixolydian'. But maybe they do around your parts.

The main reason why you specify a key is to make sure everyone plays it in the same, well, key. You have to do that derpy thing where you say 'After You've Gone in Bb (first chord Eb)' sometimes. TBH, the key that's written on the music is mostly what people go by (though not in the case of modal stuff). It's not rocket science.

[Tal_175]

We’re honestly kind of at the point where we’re arguing with a person about whether or not Sprite is a “cola.”

It would be weird to tell someone that Sprite is not a cola and they’re totally wrong, because that’s a particular regionalism that people use and it’s useful to them and that’s fine.

It would also be weird for the person who called Sprite a cola to insist that they are objectively correct and the correct definition of cola includes Sprite. It would be helpful to acknowledge that their usage is not in line with the common one.

Tal’s stuff has its own internal logic, but it’s also inconsistent with the common definition. Which is fine, assuming there’s space to acknowledge that. So at this point that’s the argument we’re having. Which is not really much of an argument.

I'm very close to resolving the issue once Christian replies to my post about the key of So What.

[bediles]

Ha. Fair enough.


I don't know how else to say modal music is non-functional. Doesn't matter if there's a home base because the chords don't have functions.

[bediles]

We’re honestly kind of at the point where we’re arguing with a person about whether or not Sprite is a “cola.”

It would be weird to tell someone that Sprite is not a cola and they’re totally wrong, because that’s a particular regionalism that people use and it’s useful to them and that’s fine.

It would also be weird for the person who called Sprite a cola to insist that they are objectively correct and the correct definition of cola includes Sprite. It would be helpful to acknowledge that their usage is not in line with the wider common one.

Tal’s stuff has its own internal logic, but it’s also inconsistent with the common definition. Which is fine, assuming there’s space to acknowledge that. So at this point that’s the argument we’re having. Which is not really much of an argument.

I'm a Pop guy, myself.

[pamosmusic]

I'm very close to resolving the issue once Christian replies to my post about the key of So What.

Godspeed.

[Christian Miller]

That’s right. We’re talking SOFT DRINK REGIONALISMS.

Did I officially run it into the ground?

If not, do tell me how.

EDIT: I’m joking. But for real, the argument now is about how people use a term. Not about theory.

No you did not. Tal 175 WILL DIE ON THAT HILL GODDAMMIT

[Tal_175]

D minor. (The mode is D dorian.)

In the same way as I'd say, the key of this blues is F major, even if the first chord is F7. No one I know says 'blues in F7'

Fantastic. That's what I was hoping for. So we are agreeing that the tune establishes D as it's key center, (the tonic pitch) using the Dorian mode.
I'm perfectly happy with calling it the key of D minor in Dorian (or something like that), instead of key of D Dorian. I am not arguing about what the jargon should be. I only care about the meaning. Whether the concept of tonality (as in establishing a tonal center for a piece of music) applies to Modal tunes or not. Sorry to repeat myself but that's why I keep referring to my post #116 to clarify my position:

I guess we will agree to disagree.
My take is:
- Modal harmony also has a key center. Otherwise there wouldn't have been distinct musical phenomena such as C major, D dorian, and E phrygian. Moreover listener hears C, D and E as the home respectively in these situations but the key centers of D and E would be more understated.
- Since these modal keys can be established by only using certain harmonic devices and combinations there is a sense of harmonic function in modal music. A harmonic function doesn't have to be only V-I. Modal vamps also rely on functions of chords to establish a sense of home.

[James W]

Fantastic. That's what I was hoping for. So we are agreeing that the tune establishes D as it's key center, (the tonic pitch) using the Dorian mode.
I'm perfectly happy with calling it the key of D minor in Dorian (or something like that), instead of key of D Dorian. I am not arguing about what the jargon should be. I only care about the meaning. Whether the concept of tonality as in establishing a tonal center for a piece of music applies to Modal tunes or not. Sorry to repeat myself but that's why I keep referring to my post #116 to clarify my position:

Modal music is different though, I mean to take So What as an example, it abruptly switches back and forth between two modes. This is not a modulation or key change in the sense one finds in tonal music.

[Tal_175]

Modal music is different though, I mean to take So What as an example, it abruptly switches back and forth between two modes. This is not a modulation or key change in the sense one finds in tonal music.

Abrupt key change up a half step is extremely common in tonal music to the extent that it has become the corniest pop device ever. I want to throw up every time I hear it.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[...] So we are agreeing that the tune establishes D as it's key center, (the tonic pitch) using the Dorian mode.
[...]

It is not the tune that establishes D as tonal center, it is the hearing, the aural perception in the human brain that is searching for a reference point in all kinds of music, even if they are intended as "atonal", e.g.12-tone rows. This is missing from the whole discussion so far.

[Tal_175]

It is not the tune that establishes D as tonal center, it is the hearing, the aural perception in the human brain that is searching for a reference point in all kinds of music, even if they are intended as "atonal", e.g.12-tone rows. This is missing from the whole discussion so far.

That's just a phrasing the concept differently. Let me ask then, what makes the human brain choose D as the reference pitch in the context of that tune? Why not F?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

That's just a phrasing the concept differently. Let me ask then, what makes the human brain choose D as the reference pitch in the context of that tune? Why not F?

I think the basis for the aural perception is the physics in the world we are living in. A tone consists of a basic frequency and overtones. The hearing tends to search for a basic frequency.

[Christian Miller]

Fantastic. That's what I was hoping for. So we are agreeing that the tune establishes D as it's key center, (the tonic pitch) using the Dorian mode.
I'm perfectly happy with calling it the key of D minor in Dorian (or something like that), instead of key of D Dorian. I am not arguing about what the jargon should be. I only care about the meaning. Whether the concept of tonality (as in establishing a tonal center for a piece of music) applies to Modal tunes or not. Sorry to repeat myself but that's why I keep referring to my post #116 to clarify my position:

Yeah I mean it’s just a convention.

It is presumably clear to you that the sense of tonality in ‘so what’ is not the same as the sense of tonality in the Introit of the Mozart Requiem with it’s clearly ‘functional’ harmony. Obviously in both cases there is a clearly defined D minor modality with a minor third, but it’s not the whole story. Mozart modulates, uses secondary tonicisations and chromaticism and so on in a specific way, the craft of which is often described as ‘tonal harmony’ and this is where the concept of ‘key’ really comes in.

In the case of a modal vamp, it is obviously more like the sense of tonality provided by the drone in Indian music, although the use of drone is not necessary to establish tonality in monodic music. For example in unaccompanied Plainsong, the tonality is established through the final melodic cadence. Tbh I think I even hear a central tonality in a lot of ‘atonal’ music.

For example, describing this as being ‘in D minor’ makes sense from a Western perspective (that’s the central pitch and we have a minor third) but of course is, well, not really accurate?

(love a key signature with a half flat, baby!)

Same with So what. It’s not really d minor in the same way as a classical piece in that key is, but from a conversational perspective it is understood, sure. It’s natural minor with a funny note. (But such an understanding is facile and shallow.)

But is that really terribly important?

Mostly we would not use the term ‘key’ to describe Arabic Maqams or church modes when we get into the detail. On a granular level even beyond the scales you have to have a nuanced how they are used…. So, ‘key’ to me suggests the Western tonal baggage big time.

[Tal_175]

I think the basis for the aural perception is the physics in the world we are living in. A tone consists of a basic frequency and overtones. The hearing tends to search for a basic frequency.

I agree that tonal centers do not happen by magic. No doubt there are physical and neurological and various other (like cultural) factors that are involved in our interpretation of musical events.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[...] But is that really terribly important? Mostly we would not use the term ‘key’ to describe Arabic Maqams or church modes when we get into the detail.

What counts is the perception of tonal centers and rhythms that is rather a universal human thing (or a global phenomenom if you want) that makes intercultural exchange possible like on this travel of a band from my hometown that transformed them from a jazz rock to a world music group.

[Tal_175]

Same with So what. It’s not really d minor in the same way as a classical piece in that key is, but from a conversational perspective it is understood, sure.

That's true. Modal tunes do not establish tonal centers in the same way more conventional tertian harmony often does. I mean modal vamps, drones, quartal harmony etc are far more understated than banging the listeners in the head with a series of V-I's (like quite literally in some of tchaikovsky concertos, lol).

In fact, tonal tunes do not establish tonality in the same way either. There are a lot of artistic variations in how harmony is utilized in tonal music. Some more ambiguous than others. Minor keys are different than major keys in this respect as well. I hear most conventional minor key tunes as more understated tonality wise than major tunes for example.

Would it be accurate to exclude modal music from the continuum of tonal music and consider it a separate compositional mechanism that doesn't rely on a pitch center as a melodic reference? I don't hear most modal music that way. I hear them as part of the tonal spectrum.

[pamosmusic]

Tbh I think I even hear a central tonality in a lot of ‘atonal’ music.

Apparently this drove Schoenberg crazy.

On paper he felt sure he could write an atonal music, but every time he played it he heard a tonal center.

I always understood that as the reason for the development of twelve-tone and rows and series and things of that nature. Tonality was so hard to avoid, it required those preset structures.

That might be apocryphal though.

[James W]

That's true. Modal tunes do not establish tonal centers in the same way more conventional tertian harmony often does.

Which is what I've been saying all along.

[Tal_175]

Which is what I've been saying all along.

Yeah, I said it twice like 400 posts ago. That's never been the point. But I'm glad it's sorted out now.

[Christian Miller]

That's true. Modal tunes do not establish tonal centers in the same way more conventional tertian harmony often does. I mean modal vamps, drones, quartal harmony etc are far more understated than banging the listeners in the head with a series of V-I's (like quite literally in some of tchaikovsky concertos, lol).

In fact, tonal tunes do not establish tonality in the same way either. There are a lot of artistic variations in how harmony is utilized in tonal music. Some more ambiguous than others. Minor keys are different than major keys in this respect as well. I hear most conventional minor key tunes as more understated tonality wise than major tunes for example.

Would it be accurate to exclude modal music from the continuum of tonal music and consider it a separate compositional mechanism that doesn't rely on a pitch center as a melodic reference? I don't hear most modal music that way. I hear them as part of the tonal spectrum.

Ah I posted a long answer lost to the ether. I think you are mistaking a quibble over terms for a more fundamental disagreement.

upshot - key as a notion could extend to modern pop progs like Am F G Am that are ‘in Am’ but don’t have an obvious functionality to them in the classic sense but I think most people would think about them as being in a given key.

otoh the technique of classical (c18) music involves V I cadences on a fairly fundamental level, for example in thematic exposition in Bach etc, not always in root position. The minor scale is specifically modified to look more like a major scale to facilitate this, unlike folk or rock use of the minor scale.

the c19 relaxed things some ways, but a lot of the basic furniture remained in a way it didn’t in c20 concert music and in much pop/rock

That said, tin pan alley songs - tonal, in this very trad way.

tbh I prefer the terms ‘functional’ or ‘common practice’ to ‘tonal’ (or ‘atonal’) for this reason. The use of the term ‘key’ is very normative, I’ve not found a neat definition.

[Christian Miller]

Oh - idle thought, I don’t see why non tertian harmony couldn’t have a type of cadential functionality as well

[James W]

Yeah, I said it twice like 400 posts ago. That's never been the point. But I'm glad it's sorted out now.

What was the point?

[Tal_175]

otoh the technique of classical (c18) music involves V I cadences on a fairly fundamental level, for example in thematic exposition in Bach etc, not always in root position. The scale is specifically modified to look more like a major scale to facilitate this, unlike folk or rock use of the minor scale.

So if a tune only used plagal cadence (which is basically a dorian vamp) to go back to the tonic, you wouldn't consider it a proper key?

[Tal_175]

What was the point?

Posts #116 and #129. I never said they used the same mechanism to establish the reference pitch.

[Christian Miller]

Apparently this drove Schoenberg crazy.

On paper he felt sure he could write an atonal music, but every time he played it he heard a tonal center.

I always understood that as the reason for the development of twelve-tone and rows and series and things of that nature. Tonality was so hard to avoid, it required those preset structures.

That might be apocryphal though.

Could be!

I always thought it was that he struggled to write extended free atonal instrumental pieces. All the extended works of that period are vocal and use the text to drive the music. The instrumental pieces of that era are short.

As a lover of Brahms this bothered him no end, and he wanted to find a way of spinning out pieces from a limited amount of material in the same way.

(Of course as soon as he started writing concertos and such like with his new technique people accused him of writing wrong note Brahms and had other plans with his technique, looking to Webern)

probably a bit of both?