Easy Diatonic Standards

[Tal_175]

If tonal is defined as a specific key centre, which it is, then it isn't modal. Modal music does not have a specific tonal centre. That's the whole point.

That's not true. Modal music does have tonal centers. The difference is the tonal center is established without the dominant-tonic functional device. For example a dorian modal tune would have a key. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to even call it dorian. Since there is a key, it's tonal. In other words, it has a home. But that home is established using more understated functional relationships than the V-I cadence.

I think you're confusing modal with non-functional music. Some would argue that even non-functional music is tonal, but let's leave that out of this discussion.

[pamosmusic]

That's not true. Modal music does have tonal centers. The difference is the tonal center is established without the dominant-tonic functional device. For example a dorian modal tune would have a key. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to even call it dorian. Since there is a key, it's tonal. In other words, it has a home. But that home is established using more understated functional relationships than the V-I cadence.

I think you're confusing modal with non-functional music. One can argue that even non-functional music is tonal, but let's leave that out of this discussion.

I had a post about this several pages ago, but I guess it’s buried now. Part of tonal music is that the chords have harmonic function. Modal music isn’t tonal in that sense. Non-functional is tougher because function can be pretty obscure—is Debussy using functional harmony? Kind of depends on what was going on in the guys head.

Actually if you Google definitions of “tonal” most of the articles like to contrast tonal harmony with its opposite, to sort of clarify what it is. And they usually contrast tonal harmony to modal harmony, rather than atonality. Probably because modal harmony is more common than true atonality? Anyway …

[ragman1]

I wrote a tune called Bolsover Road once. It's entirely in Locrian and contains all the chords of C major. But it begins and ends with Bm7b5. It doesn't wander, it's nicely structured, and could very well be mistaken for a normal tonal tune. But it's not. Well, not in my world :-)

[Tal_175]

I had a post about this several pages ago, but I guess it’s buried now. Part of tonal music is that the chords have harmonic function. Modal music isn’t tonal in that sense. Non-functional is tougher because function can be pretty obscure—is Debussy using functional harmony? Kind of depends on what was going on in the guys head.

Actually if you Google definitions of “tonal” most of the articles contrast tonal harmony to modal harmony, rather than atonal, to clarify.

I was replying to this post:

If tonal is defined as having a specific key centre, which it is, then it isn't modal.

Modal music does have key centers otherwise there wouldn't be a distinction between D dorian mode and E phrygian mode right?(same set of notes). But you can establish D or E as your key center depending on the chord progression in the vamp. Therefore there are chord functions in modal music. The Advancing Guitarist has a good summary of vamps to for establishing different notes of the C major scale as key centers for example.

[ragman1]

Since there is a key, it's tonal.

Dorian is not a key.

[Tal_175]

Dorian is not a key.

Neither is Major.
C major is a key. D dorian is a key.

[ragman1]

Anything you say, bro :-)

[Tal_175]

I wrote a tune called Bolsover Road once. It's entirely in Locrian and contains all the chords of C major. But it begins and ends with Bm7b5. It doesn't wander, it's nicely structured, and could very well be mistaken for a normal tonal tune. But it's not. Well, not in my world :-)

Locrian mode is very difficult to establish. Try dorian. Also if you fail to establish a modal key by just simply beginning and ending a tune with the same chord type, that doesn't mean there aren't other harmonic combinations that wouldn't work. Again check out the vamps in Advancing Guitarist.

[pamosmusic]

Neither is Major.
C major is a key. D dorian is a key.

D Dorian and E Phrygian have the same key signature and contain the same notes so there’s something else going on that establishes them as different.

C major and A minor have the same key signature, but different harmony that establishes them as separate things. It’s the functional harmony (both have a V chord, for example) that makes them tonal.

Anyway. Like most theory, this stuff is helpful insofar as it’s helpful. A modal tune doesn’t have that functional movement, and if you imply that functional movement over the modal harmony, it’ll pretty quickly stop sounding modal and start sounding off kilter. That’s a helpful distinction to me. Non-functional harmony is a helpful distinction because there are some tunes that just don’t really work in that cyclical tonal way and it’s helpful to think of them that way.

I didn’t used to think it helped to think of Giant Steps as a tonal tune but people do. There’s a great Bruce Forman lesson where he simplifies the changes in all these interesting colorful ways and makes it pretty doggone clear how functional it can be and still sound like Giant Steps. So I find that distinction helpful.

Again — modal harmony is different. Even if it is a “key center” (It’s not clear to me that it is), the harmony doesn’t function That’s why I kept obnoxiously amending ragman’s posts for an hour late last night.

“Tonal harmony has a key center!”

“And also functional harmony”

**Peter says in the super fast voice that they use for the legal addenda at the end of a car commercial**

[Tal_175]

“Tonal harmony has a key center!”

“And also functional harmony”

**Peter says in the super fast voice that they use for the legal addenda at the end of a car commercial**

I guess we will agree to disagree.
My take is:
- Modal harmony also has a key center. Otherwise there wouldn't have been distinct musical phenomena such as C major, D dorian, and E phrygian. Moreover listener hears C, D and E as the home respectively in these situations but the key centers of D and E would be more understated.
- Since these modal keys can be established by only using certain harmonic devices and combinations there is a sense of harmonic function in modal music. A harmonic function doesn't have to be only V-I. Modal vamps also rely on functions of chords to establish a sense of home.

[pamosmusic]

You brought up establishing a modal harmony and I think it can be clarifying to just ask:

How do you tonicize it?

How do you tonicize D Dorian? Hard to say. You can obviously establish a mode, but it’s tough to explain specifically how. I remember a while back when Reg was trying to explain it and it’s a slippery concept. Establishing the characteristic sound of the mode, but specifically without establishing functional harmony inadvertently.

On the other hand, how do you tonicize D minor?

Five. one.

[pamosmusic]

I guess we will agree to disagree.

Deal.

[AllanAllen]

Christian you are such a theory dork you are mad at theory. That would be Queens English mad, as in crazy at theory.

5 minutes a day adds up.

[James W]

Modal music is also tonal music.

Not true. Modal music existed for hundreds of years before tonal music came along. Plus, have you ever heard much of Messiaen's music?

[Tal_175]

Not true. Modal music existed for hundreds of years before tonal music came along. Plus, have you ever heard much of Messiaen's music?

I summarized my specific points in post #117. Nothing you said is a contradiction to that post. The characteristics of tonal music also existed for hundreds of years across different cultures before the terminology came along.

[James W]

I summarized my specific points in post #117. Nothing you said is a contradiction to that post. The characteristics of tonal music also existed for hundreds of years across different cultures before the terminology came along.

This is not true. Have you ever listened to or checked out any Medieval or Renaissance music? They did not think in terms of tonality, they thought modally, it's a historical fact.

[pamosmusic]

I summarized my specific points in post #117. Nothing you said is a contradiction to that post. The characteristics of tonal music also existed for hundreds of years across different cultures before the terminology came along.

Thats true, but it’s just worth noting that your definition is a bit different than the common practice definition. Your definition makes sense, but the Kostka-Payne theory textbook called Tonal Harmony that is used by most theory students in the States is referring to non-modal, tonic-dominant, functional harmony.

Again—not saying your definition is pointless or silly. It makes sense the way you describe it. But to someone coming along reading, your definition is different than the common-practice definition most folks are using.

[James W]

I guess we will agree to disagree.
My take is:
- Modal harmony also has a key center. Otherwise there wouldn't have been distinct musical phenomena such as C major, D dorian, and E phrygian. Moreover listener hears C, D and E as the home respectively in these situations but the key centers of D and E would be more understated.
- Since these modal keys can be established by only using certain harmonic devices and combinations there is a sense of harmonic function in modal music. A harmonic function doesn't have to be only V-I. Modal vamps also rely on functions of chords to establish a sense of home.

Music might have a home note, but this in and of itself does not make that music necessarily tonal. Some of the music of Boulez which is based on the Sacher hexachord will gravitate towards E flat i.e. what is known as pitch centricity but to talk about harmonic function in the same sense as Beethoven makes no sense for this music. Likewise with Gregorian chant - yes, there will a home note of course, but that in itself does not make something tonal.

There is a reason for these separate terms 'modal' and 'tonal'. Blanket statements of modal music being tonal is not very helpful and at best ahistorical. More nuance is called for in employment of these terms.

[Tal_175]

Music might have a home note, but this in and of itself does not make that music necessarily tonal.

It seems like you're making up your own definitions. Tonal music is a music that has a tonic. What is your definition?

There is a reason for these separate terms 'modal' and 'tonal'. Blanket statements of modal music being tonal is not very helpful and at best ahistorical. More nuance is called for in employment of these terms.

Saying that modal music is not tonal is also a blanket statement that lacks nuance. I'm giving musically meaningful distinctions that one can hear and play to make my point (#117), not by stringing together half-baked, vague historical references.

[DawgBone]

Don't combine tonal and diatonic or non-diatonic. A structured piece of music is tonal if it has a key centre, that's all.

So any tune is tonal. That is one thing.

Then, within that structure, the notes keep to the basic scale without chromatic alterations. That's called diatonic. If it deviates from the basic scale it's non-diatonic. That's a separate thing.

How does that make sense. "Don't combine tonal and diatonic....." followed by "any tune is tonal". Keep them separate....but your post is stating the opposite.

So diatonic="of the key" which also also qualifies it as tonal in it's most simplistic sense because it is key centric

Tonal=key centric but not arranged in diatonic fashion

Yes or no?

[James W]

It seems like you're making up your own definitions. Tonal music is a music that has a tonic. What is your definition?

I don't disagree with your definition. What makes you think I'm making up my own definition?

Saying that modal music is not tonal is also a blanket statement that lacks nuance. I'm giving musically meaningful distinctions to make my point (#117), not half-baked, vague historical references.

I didn't say that modal music is not tonal - I just disagreed with you saying that modal music is tonal, and I gave some real-world examples to back up my claim.

If you were to make the claim that modal music is tonal in an undergraduate music essay you would obviously get marked down for it. This is basic stuff. Theorists of the medieval and Renaissance era thought in terms of modality, while you have to wait until Rameau before you get a theorist talking about tonality.

So, I don't disagree that there is music that may combine elements of modality and tonality, I am not guilty of making any blanket statements such as modal music being tonal. I'm not the one making blanket statements, I was just talking about music history - I am fully aware that for composers and improvisers since the 20th century obviously using all aspects of music such as the tonal, modal and atonal have all been fair game.

[Tal_175]

I don't disagree with your definition. What makes you think I'm making up my own definition?

So you're agreeing with the definition that tonal music is music that has a tonic. You're agreeing that modal music has a tonic. Am I with you so far?

[Tal_175]

I'd say that both tonal music and modal music have a tonic hence a key center. In fact, this whole discussion was started with me disagreeing with Ragman's statement that modal music has no key center or tonic.

Although that makes both types of music tonal, traditionally when people say "tonal music" they are also implicitly talking about the particular harmonic and melodic mechanisms that establish the tonic. These are based on certain tetrian diatonic functions and cadence rules. Modal music has different harmonic and melodic devices to establish the tonic, such as quartal harmony, modal vamps, repetition etc.

[James W]

I'd say the term 'tonic' as well as 'subdominant' 'supertonic' etc. Are all terms relating to tonal music rather than modal music.

[bediles]

The presence of a leading tone dictates 'the key' in the strictest sense (in harmony or melody) As it was said before, the 7 notes of a major scale feel different bc of their organization, there's an in built hierarchy based on the overtone series and perceived consonace/dissonance.

With this definition, lots of pop songs are not really in a key per se but they also don't really follow the rules of western art music (pre romantic?... now im out of my depth) ... let's just put this point aside for now. Things are rarely just one thing.

With that being said, this definition does differentiate modal from tonal. The Dmi7 in impressions/so what can feel like home but there's no dominant functioning chord or leading tone in the melody so it's not tonal.

The notes of Dmin Dorian are diatonic to C major. If there's deviation from those seven notes, aka accidentals, that's non diatonic. Also, minor keys are funny... park this one too.

I didn't read all the prev posts, but I read quite a few