Easy Diatonic Standards

[pamosmusic]

Is blues not fully diatonic because of the dom7 in the I and IV chords instead of just the V? I'm getting lost because a lot of blues will do that but still retain other chords in that key, like I-vi-ii-V for example with a bridge going to a IV dom 7 chord? My theory is weak....

Right. Also the improvisations. Over that tonic chord, a blues player might play a b3, a natural 3, some blue notes, etc.

[DawgBone]

Yeah it’s not a super useful term in popular music because probably 95% of everything is tonal. Tonal can be something riddled with non diatonic chords but that still function in the normal, Rest Tension Resolution way of diatonic harmony. So it could be something simple like All of Me with secondary dominants or something complex like Giant Steps changes, so long as the purpose is to leave a tonal center, move through chords in a logical way, and land back on the tonal center. That’s kind of a rough way of describing it but hopefully helpful?

So What is not really a tonal tune because the chords don’t “function” … D minor just exists for a while, then it goes to Eb minor which just exists for a while.

So boiling this down to the music theory 101 starter kit level understanding: A chord progression, a simple song/jam of A major to G major and back to A major etc etc over and over using A as the key center. That's tonal? Since G major doesn't exist diatonically in A?

Thanks for taking the time to explain this. I read the thread but didn't understand what was meant by tonal so it was throwing me off grasping some of the conversation.

[DawgBone]

Right. Also the improvisations. Over that tonic chord, a blues player might play a b3, a natural 3, some blue notes, etc.

Wait, so we are talking about solos and improvisations as well and not just the use of chords? So for example I catch a b5 in a chromatic sense during the course of a run or sequence of notes that is moveing from D to E, for example, in a song centered in the key of A. That's also tonal? Or is it only tonal if I'm not using it in a chromatic way? I get that it isn't diatonic "of the key" but I have never heard it described that way. I guess I never thought about it, I just played it. I guess I'm trying to wrap my mind around the application of that word so I don't sound like someone pretending they know what they are talking about here when pretty much everyone grasps theory here on a higher level than I do.

Another example/question: what of using a b7 in a solo over a dom 7 chord? Like a G note over an A7 chord. Is that tonal also since it is not diatonic to A? So really we aren't talking about anything that complex? Tonal=any note or chord used that isn't diatonic and related to the key center?

[pamosmusic]

Wait, so we are talking about solos and improvisations as well and not just the use of chords? So for example I catch a b5 in a chromatic sense during the course of a run or sequence of notes that is moveing from D to E, for example, in a song centered in the key of A. That's also tonal? Or is it only tonal if I'm not using it in a chromatic way? I get that it isn't diatonic "of the key" but I have never heard it described that way. I guess I never thought about it, I just played it. I guess I'm trying to wrap my mind around the application of that word so I don't sound like someone pretending they know what they are talking about here when pretty much everyone grasps theory here on a higher level than I do.

Another example/question: what of using a b7 in a solo over a dom 7 chord? Like a G note over an A7 chord. Is that tonal also since it is not diatonic to A? So really we aren't talking about anything that complex? Tonal=any note or chord used that isn't diatonic and related to the key center?

Tonal stops having much meaning when you get down to the granular, one chord at a time level.

Tonal music usually refers to harmonic function so it doesn’t really help when you’re describing notes over a single chord.

I probably confused the issue with that blues comment you quoted. Scrap it for now, it seems like you get it.

[ragman1]

I got lost on the diatonic vs tonal part of the discussion.

Diatonic="of the key". I understand that much.

Tonal means what though?

Miller strikes again. He's confused the issue by combining those two terms. He said:

'I really wish people didn’t use the term diatonic to refer to tonal music. There is very little purely diatonic tonal music'.

'Very little' doesn't exclude non-diatonic music which is, nevertheless, tonal.

------------

Diatonic means strictly specific to the key, as you say,

Tonal music has a specific tonal centre (whereas atonal music doesn't).

Basically, tonal music is the music we know and it can include chromatic variation whereas diatonic music doesn't.

Diatonic/non-diatonic can be compared and tonal/atonal can be compared but comparing tonal and diatonic merely produces confusion. 'Tonal' just means 'not-atonal' and one doesn't normally need to specify it.

It's really not worth getting into, trust me.

[DawgBone]

Miller strikes again. He's confused the issue by combining those two terms. He said:



'Very little' doesn't exclude non-diatonic music which is, nevertheless, tonal.

Diatonic means strictly specific to the key, as you say,

Tonal music has a specific tonal centre (whereas atonal music doesn't). Basically, tonal music is the music we know but its content may, or may not, be diatonic. Tonal music can include chromatic variation whereas diatonic music doesn't.

Diatonic/non-diatonic can be compared and tonal/atonal can be compared. But comparing tonal and diatonic merely produces confusion.

It's really not worth getting into, trust me.

I'm now recalling why I dropped out of the university music program. I'm not sure if I have autism, ADD, or just a natural tendency to discard stuff that isn't intuitive to me but when something gets complex and I don't see it as immediately applicable to my personal goals it's like my brain wants to shut down and tune it all out. If it is complex and I can see it's application I go all out and it's not a problem. The 4 part harmony requirement and stupid mandatory piano lessons ruined it for me. .Like when my kid starts talking gigabytes and RAM and local area networks my brain is no longer active. Anyways....

"Diatonic means strictly specific to the key, as you say"

Ok. So I'm playing a piece that is purely diatonic chords. I get to the solo section and I step out of the diatonic key but once, using a single b5 in my improv. Now it's not purely diatonic anymore by definition? Well son, your chords were diatonic but your solo was tonal. This seems like hair splitting. I'm almost ready to say screw this and forget I ever asked. Maybe you're right and Miller has some explaining to do.

[ragman1]

'Happy Birthday' and 'Take The A Train' are both in the key of C and therefore tonal because they both have a specific key centre. But one is diatonic and the other isn't.

It only refers to the composition, not any improvisation.

[pamosmusic]

'Happy Birthday' and 'Take The A Train' are both in the key of C and therefore tonal. But one is diatonic and the other isn't.

I guess you’ve never had to harmonize the “happy birthday dear so and so” part, but I digress.

Anyway. My bad for attempting to answer a question in good faith.

But for what it’s worth, knowing whether harmony is functional or not, is reasonably useful.

Take it from a guy who spent most of his freshman year of college tripping all over Maiden Voyage with a bunch of wildly inappropriate bebop licks.

People who tell you that YOU MUST KNOW THIS are full of it. As are people who tell you it’s pointless to know.

Anyway, I hope I sort of answered the question posed.

[pamosmusic]

Try this one out:

Happy Birthday Song Sheet music for Piano (Solo) | Musescore.com

[ragman1]

You're not going to get me confused! That's a tonal piece of music. It has a key signature. But it's non-diatonic because it has chromatic variations. Dead simple.

[DawgBone]

'Happy Birthday' and 'Take The A Train' are both in the key of C and therefore tonal because they both have a specific key centre. But one is diatonic and the other isn't.

So now diatonic IS tonal but tonal is not necessarily diatonic? I think I might just take Allen's now deleted good advice and forget about all this bullshit. No offense.

[DawgBone]

I sometimes fingerpick happy birthday for people who just gotta have some jerk play it for them at a gig. Where is it not diatonic?!?!

[pamosmusic]

I sometimes fingerpick happy birthday for people who just gotta have some jerk play it for them at a gig. Where is it not diatonic?!?!

Pardon me … I’m yanking our friend’s chain.

[ragman1]

So now diatonic IS tonal but tonal is not necessarily diatonic? I think I might just take Allen's now deleted good advice and forget about all this bullshit. No offense.

No, don't forget it, get it clear. Then you can forget it!

Did you read what I said before? Don't combine tonal and diatonic or non-diatonic. A structured piece of music is tonal if it has a key centre, that's all.

So any tune is tonal. That is one thing.

Then, within that structure, the notes keep to the basic scale without chromatic alterations. That's called diatonic. If it deviates from the basic scale it's non-diatonic. That's a separate thing.

Don't combine the two. Keep them clear and separate.

Sleep on it. It'll be all right in the morning :-)

[DawgBone]

He said it had "chromatic variations". What does that mean? I am assuming some kind of melodic variations? Melodic alterations with chromaticism make it tonal but single note leads are not part of this equation? How?

Never mind. I'm gonna have a brain aneurysm if I don't just go play some pentatonics.

[DawgBone]

Ok, I'll re-read that in the morning. I think I get it. Thanks ragman and peter. I'm hitting my theory limit right now on account of this.

[pamosmusic]

No, don't forget it, get it clear. Then you can forget it!

Did you read what I said before? Don't combine tonal and diatonic or non-diatonic. A structured piece of music is tonal if it has a key centre, that's all.

So any tune is tonal. That is one thing.

Then, within that structure, the notes keep to the basic scale without chromatic alterations. That's called diatonic. If it deviates from the basic scale it's non-diatonic. That's a separate thing.

Don't combine the two. Keep them clear and separate.

Sleep on it. It'll be all right in the morning :-)

Deleted my last post because this more or less covers it.

Exception being that modal stuff can look like it has a sort of key center, but doesn’t have any functional harmonic motion. It’s just the one chord hanging out, doing its thing. That’s a useful distinction since this is a jazz forum and that’s a big part of the catalog.

Anyway … theory dork (per Allen’s deleted comment) signing off.

[AllanAllen]

I guess I wasn’t fast enough. ?

I deleted the reply because humor is lost in text and I didn’t want to upset anyone.

But honestly play your guitar instead of this, it’s a better use of your time.

[pamosmusic]

I guess I wasn’t fast enough. ?

I deleted the reply because humor is lost in text and I didn’t want to upset anyone.

But honestly play your guitar instead of this, it’s a better use of your time.

Confirmed.

But if it makes you feel better, I’ve been called worse than a theory dork.

[Christian Miller]

Christian will be around shortly to correct any major mistakes I’ve made in this summary.

haha

didnt spot anything. I think you are correct… I would like to be called a theory dork and also mad at theory

melodies tend to be more diatonic than the chords. However most jazz soloists are worrying about the chords?

Re tonal music - generally used to mean common practice or harmonically functional music. Wikipedia says fwiw

“Tonality is the arrangement of pitches and/or chords of a musical work in a hierarchy of perceived relations, stabilities, attractions and directionality.” Which doesn’t mean quite the same thing but what I described is covered by that definition. A lot of things are quite slippery to define.

If I’m going to be super anal about it I would describe (functional) tonality more as a lens of analysis then an inherent property of music, as Tonal music was written long before the theory of tonality was established (even before Rameau in 1730ish) but that’s unnecessary for this discussion.

Standards are tonal, but jazz… it’s complicated.

Jazz of course has a sort of layered tonality which isn’t quite like western harmony.

[Christian Miller]

'Happy Birthday' and 'Take The A Train' are both in the key of C and therefore tonal because they both have a specific key centre. But one is diatonic and the other isn't.

It only refers to the composition, not any improvisation.

Furthermore, the melody of HB is entirely diatonic, but a typical harmonisation might be

C G7 G7 C
C C7/E F F#o7 C/G G7 C

Which obviously isn’t. But tonally the chromatic bit of the progression clearly functions to move the harmony to IV and back again in a very traditional way (it’s a sub of C F C G7) and can be easily described as tonal.

[RickyHolden]

You'd be amazed.



That doesn't sound very green to me.



Let's hope so.

If the right hand piano solos are a bridge too far, then he can manage the melody at the start and end and I'll cover the improv.
The backing track can be up on ireal Pro so that he can follow the chords and not get lost.

To complete this thread, if I still remember by Christmas I'll post a recording of the show.

[ragman1]

Peter -

I've slept on it too!

I've re-read your posts, which I was lazy about late at night. They're very good and clear. I thought I was being super-clear but I probably wasn't. So apologies for muddying the waters.

If I'd keep one thing said to Dawg, and I hope he's got it now, it would be to keep tonal and diatonic/non-diatonic separate. A tonal piece can be either. Perhaps we could say tonal is about structure and diatonic is about content...

And tonal is not modal, of course.

[Tal_175]

And tonal is not modal, of course.

I think this is gonna cause confusion. Modal music is also tonal music. Moreover modal music is sometimes diatonic. For example Mick Goodrich's modal vamps are diatonic and tonal.

[ragman1]

If tonal is defined as having a specific key centre, which it is, then it isn't modal. Modal music does not have a specific tonal centre. That's the whole point.

But it becomes muddy when we get to the blues...