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Hi!!, can someone recommend me some good jazz guitar methods?
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07-14-2023 08:59 AM
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Oh oh, I know this one! learn to play by ear, learn the notes of the fret board, get a teacher and play with other students.
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Yea here is post from old thread I started... it's just the beginning. But it will work for starting etc... There are lots of other posts and hand outs.
Reg
Join DateJan 2010Posts5,043Original Poster
I'm going to start these posts in sections... they will all tie together. You need to understand where I start from, my basic references.
Even though I'm going to begin with technical BS, fingerings, chords, scales, arpeggios... You need to understand the concepts, both actual playing as well as approaches behind that playing.
So there are levels of playing as well as levels of harmony/theory approaches... your level of physical skills and your level of understanding what your playing.
1) I'll start with fingerings... methods of organizing your fingers with all aspects of playing... I have a base fingering system or my default starting point.
2) Through that fingering system, I'll get into scales, arpeggios etc...
3) Chords, how I comp...
4) I use the same methods or systems of organization... "reference, relationships and development" for almost all aspects of my playing.
5) I'll have to get into forms, rhythmic concepts and what reading and playing jazz charts is... not simply what's notated.
There are more skills and we can get into them as they come up...
My harmonic/theory approaches are simple, use of Modal interchange, use of Blue notes harmonically, Modal concept approaches and use of Melodic minor non-functionally. There's actually more... but it's very standard.
An example... I'm soloing over Gmaj7 to Cmaj7...
My starting point is diatonic... Ima7 to IVma7...
Next relationship could be... Function relationships or function subs;
Gmaj7... access to VI-7, then III-7
Cmaj7... access to II-7, then VI-7
Now I have choice of developing those subs, through modal interchange, blue notes, MM etc... lots of choices.
Or I can introduce more subs through different methods... tri-tone, approach, sub of subs, Related IIs or Vs... implied or deceptive relationships for sources of subs. Other reharms etc... and then start developing through my basic jazz tools for developing relationships...
Every note I play represents a complete harmonic structure... On that Gmaj7... if I play 8th note line... starting on 2nd string 7th fret... F#, G, 1st String, 7th fret... B. 2nd string... 8th fret...G, F#
F# G B G F#. Harmony or what each note implies harmonically could be, F#ma9, Gmaj9, B-7, F9, E-9 all for that original Gmaj7 chord... with those notes as lead line...
X 10 7 7 7 X
X 11 8 8 8 X
7 X 7 7 7 7
X 8 7 8 8 X
X 7 5 7 7 X
Anyway this aspect of my playing, how I approach, will if nothing else help you understand how you play... everyone will get something out of it. But I do need to start at basics.. with out a solid mechanical method of fingering and understandings of what your playing...you'll hit walls when tempos get up.
1) Fingerings... I'm a position player, I base all my fingerings or how I see and hear and get out what I hear from positions. (1st finger determines position).
I use different fingerings to help imply different styles. Same notes played in one position have a jazz feel, while when played with a different fingering will sound like rock, blues etc...
I base all my fingerings off 6th string roots and use 2nd finger for those roots...which creates all 1st finger stretches. This is my starting point of reference... My mechanical method of feeling and not having to look at the neck to hear or see where I am. It works well for me.
My reasoning was... my 2nd finger is the strongest, and my 1st finger has the most mobility... which lead to 2nd finger as base and 1st finger for stretches.
There are other fingering... 1st finger, and 4th finger based and some 3rd, 4th finger stretches or combinations of 1st and 4th, hybrids and special purpose etc... I do use many of those. But they are all used in reference to my 2nd finger base starting point.
Everything I do and play in music has a beginning, a starting point, a reference. From there I have methods of using, creating and developing relationships. This doesn't mean I always go through the process of relating to the beginning... I've trained myself... and my instincts, I trust them. My reactions even when spontaneous are really somewhat organized.
So I'll go through and make examples and charts of fingerings and make short video of hand positions etc... maybe wait on the vid for better material.
I somewhat use the same mechanical system for comping...
I use root 6 or 6th string root chords along with Root 5 and root 4. I also see and can use root 3 chords but not much. Those are my starting points... references for voicings and harmonic development.
I usually just voice my lead line, the top note, or have line going on in bass notes. All with reference to my position and what approach I'm using, same with soloing... I don't simple hear a line and play it. I hear the line in context with a harmonic approach. Just as you hear a melodic line or chord progression. What harmonic approach(es) I'm also hearing have influence on the melodic line or chords I'm referencing and developing.
This fingering and mechanical references may be a little boring at first, at least I hope so, but my approaches for actually comping and soloing won't be boring. They will help you understand different systems of playing the same collection notes with different implications.
Best Reg
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Here is more... from same old thread...
Originally Posted by Reg
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Many people will recommend the materials used at Berklee. I haven't used them, so I can't comment.
For an intermediate player looking to advance, I found Warren Nunes' books to be very helpful.
For a novice who wants to move towards playing jazz, I might suggest starting with Mel Bay's original method books 1 and 2 and moving to Rhythms Complete by Colin/Bower.Knowing how to read is a big advantage in my view, but there are great players who don't read. Once you can read, you can get the Real Book and starting learning repertoire.
Then, you'll need some material on chord voicings -- Warren's chord bible might work if you also learn tunes from youtube or something like that. Mel Bay, Mickey Baker and others have published in that area. Jody Fisher has some good books out.
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Jane Miller's Introduction to Jazz Guitar (Berklee) is very good, for someone who can play but who is new to jazz.
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I like Randy Vincent’s Guitarists Introduction to Jazz an awful lot Originally Posted by lukatherknopfler
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+1 for The Guitarist's Introduction to Jazz by Randy Vincent.
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Originally Posted by Reg
Hi Reg,
I understand and use back cycling, tonicization, tritone, parallel chromatic, ii/V type of approaches. But I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "developing those subs through modal interchange, blue notes and MM". To me, modal interchange/MM approach would be to treat the IV chord (C Maj) as the minor subdominant and develop that with MM harmony (IImin7b5, bIVaug etc w.r.t the key of G). But how would you develop the functional subs this way exactly?
Can you please show in this specific example (Gmaj Cmaj) what would the developed substitution chords would be for the three approaches you mentioned: Modal interchange, blue notes, and MM?
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Hey Tal, Originally Posted by Tal_175
So modal interchange can also be.... your changing the tonic and also use Modal organization. Functional movement becomes about Characteristic pitch usage.
Modal interchange is just changing the Tonal Reference... which becomes Modal reference. Which open the door to more options of chord patterns to voice melodic ideas, licks etc. And I like to use MM to frame Blue Notes which is a different sound and organization than playing in a rock, rock blues etc.. style
Ex.
Gmaj to Cmaj vanilla version
X X 5 7 7 X
3 X 2 2 3 X
X 3 2 4 5 X
X 7 5 7 7 X
8 X 7 7 8 X
Becomes ... This is just example... and I would probable develop the lead line rhythmically and create harmonic patterns etc...
X 10 9 11 10 9......Gma9#11
X 9 7 9 10 X ......F#-7
X 8 7 8 7 7 X.....C9#11 (this would be a triplet feel)
X 7 8 7 8 X .......E-7b5
X 9 8 9 10 X .....F#7#9
X 10 8 10 11 X .G-7
X X 8 9 10 8 .....C13
X X 8 9 10 10 ...F#7#9
I'm out of town for a week... But I'll open a new thead when I get back and post lots... of examples.
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I'm also looking forward to understanding this better. The last six chords all look like C dominants. First 7#11, then a rootless C9, then a tritone, then the related iim (Gm7), then the 13 and then another tritone sub. Originally Posted by Reg
The first chord Gmaj9#11, obviously a lydian sub, great voicing. But I'm having trouble figuring out where the F#m7 comes from. I'm guessing there's more than one way to look at it. Does the Gmaj9#11 put you in the key of D, so it's a iiim7 in D? Or is it modal interchange from the viim7b5 (F#m7b5) in G?
Typo in the C9#11 -- the first X shouldn't be there.
And, I have a general question about modal interchange. I had to google it sometime back and found that there are a great many substitutions that are called modal interchange. But, only some of them work. If that's true, then the work is to figure out, by sound, which subs work and which don't, which would seem to make the notion of modal interchange less useful. Do I have that right?
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While we're on this subject ... Reg's old thread is a great resource for understanding his approach, which produces great jazz. No question about that.
Sometimes when learning something new, people try to fit it into what they already know. This post is my attempt to do that. What follows is not a substitute for what Reg is presenting. Rather, it's just the way I learned some things that are similar to pieces of it.
Warren Nunes taught that there were two kinds of chords. He had his own nomenclature, which I won't use here. To me, they were tonic and dominant. In major scale harmony he said that Imaj7, iiim7, V7#11, vim7 were all the same thing (I'd say tonic type) and interchangeable. He also said that iim7, IVmaj7 V7 vim7 (vim7 is in both categories) and viim7b5 were the same thing and interchangeable (I'd say dominant type).
Same for the relative minors. So all the chords for Cmaj worked as well for Am7 when you're in a minor key playing natural minor.
Mark Levine wrote that all melodic minor chords are the same chord and interchangeable. That principle isn't in play in this particular example, but gives you at least 7 options for every melodic minor voicing. These are the chords built on tertiary harmony (every other scale note), if I'm using that term correctly. They work, to my ear.
These two principles can get you pretty far and they have the advantage of being easy to understand.
In Reg's example changing the Cmaj7 to Cdominant I guess is the modal interchange (Warren didn't mention that iirc). Once you're there, though, Warren would say you're in the key of F playing dominant types. They are Gm7 Bbmaj7 C7 Dm7 and Em7b5. Add in the tritone sub and a couple of extensions on the chords and you can get pretty far towards some of the substituations in Reg's example.
So, this covers some portions of what he wrote. I believe that Reg has a different view of how to use melodic minor subs, which I hope he may find time to explain.
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Where are you at now regarding guitar playing? Originally Posted by lukatherknopfler
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This doesn’t make sense….Warren Nunes taught that there were two kinds of chords. He had his own nomenclature, which I won't use here. To me, they were tonic and dominant. In major scale harmony he said that Imaj7, iiim7, V7#11, vim7 were all the same thing (I'd say tonic type) and interchangeable. He also said that iim7, IVmaj7 V7 vim7 (vim7 is in both categories) and viim7b5 were the same thing and interchangeable (I'd say dominant type).
Everything in the tonic subset is interchangeable and everything in the dominant subset is interchangeable. BUT vim7 is in both, so everything is interchangeable. That’s not a system at all.
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Hmm … yeah that maybe stands for some clarification. V7#11 also not really a major scale harmony either. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I kind of sort stuff out like that … (I, iii, vi in the tonic, and ii, IV, V, viio in the dominant) but would be interested to hear the reasoning behind the two categories here.
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I am certainly not super hip, but having spent some time with Nunes’ Jazz Chord Bible, I realized that he seemed to favor shapes that were multi use. It would make sense that he would reduce things down to two groups, as soon as you drop a note or two from a chord and add an extension things get fairly fluid. However, that was just my impression and I am not super hip yet.
The best chord book/study I have found is Chord Connections by Robert Brown. I think more like that then the Nunes approach. If I remember right Nunes does a lot of voice leading on the high notes…. or, that could just be what I remember. Maybe one day I will get that cool.
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Any of them. Honestly. Whether it is Barry Harris, or Mick Goodrich, or Randy Vincent, or Garrison Fewell, or Pat Martino, or…. They are all paths that lead you to the same place: improvising music and harmony over established forms in the jazz idiom. The approaches may seem miles apart, but the truth is they all have significant overlap.
Pick one that resonates with you and REALLY DO IT! In my experience it isn’t the method that fails people. Students tend to get excited at a new pedagogy and make early strides; but when it doesn’t deliver pro level playing in a few months they get discouraged and start looking for a new “method”.
I’ve said this before but,
Guitar is an additive art. One method doesn’t negate another. Add you knowledge together. Build a solid foundation with whatever resonates with you and add other methods and ideas as you build up. It isn’t about right and wrong, it’s about this plus that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Warren said that vim7 worked both as a tonic and a dominant. But, he didn't imply that meant that everything was interchangeble. Rather, he taught that there are two types of chords, a tonic type and a dominant type -- just that vim7 could function either way. As a tonic type in C major it would be Am7, A C E G which makes C6. As a dominant it makes G13 with 11th, so you could call it G13sus (R 4 6 13). He used it that way when he played. I can see an argument about including a four in a dominant type chord (that is, C in something that's akin to a G7), but that's what he taught - as well as I can remember it. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I think this is akin to teachings by others that talk about ignoring subdominants.
I might be remembering the Vmaj7#11 wrong, but I think that's how he taught it. It is commonly used that way, often as playing in Gmaj over a Cmaj7.
I should have said more about tritones -- since that's a significant part of getting towards the system Reg is describing.
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This makes some sense (assuming I’m reading it right.) Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
As for the Vmaj7 … I think maybe that’s a typo and we’re talking about IVmaj7#11?
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Thanks ... Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Vmaj7 would be Gmaj7 in the key of C. G B D F#. That gives a Cmaj9#11 sound if the bassist plays a C. I think that's the chord that Warren included as a tonic type. Cmaj7, Em7, Gmaj7, Am7.
I think I remembered it incorrectly (I knew there was a #11 involved someplace). Thank you for noticing this and straightening me out.
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Got it got it got it. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Vmaj7
That plus the I chord would give the Imaj7(#11).
There was a misplaced “#11” somewhere, but I’m there now.
Carry on.
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I posted what I believe to be the answer to your question in another thread. It's a new thread I created to continue this discussion. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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https://www.jazzguitar.be has all you need to get going. Not sure why nobody here ever recommends it.
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