Jazz Blues origin recordings?

[Kirk Garrett]

Where should I go to listen to the recordings where jazz blues drew its first inspiration?

I assume we’re talking about standards and not Chicago blues or Delta blues (both of which I love, BTW), but I don’t really know.

Who started jazz blues and what songs were they working from?

[docsteve]

I assume that by "jazz blues" you don't mean Ma Rainey and Bessie Smith?

[AllanAllen]

W. C. Handy - St Louis Blues

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

D'you mean like bebop blues, like Blues For Alice?

[Kirk Garrett]

D'you mean like bebop blues, like Blues For Alice?

I’m not sure what I mean. “Jazz blues” is a term that’s frequently used, and I’m wondering who were the earliest practitioners, and if there are particular recordings you would recommend that emerged early.

[Bop Head]

1. Jazz and Blues were not so strongly divided in the days of early jazz (regarding Bessie Smith, Ma Rainey etc.)

2. The term "jazz blues" often refers to the 12 bar pattern of the basic form

| I / / / | IV7 / / / | I / / / | I7 / / / |

| IV7 / / / | / / / / | I / / / | VI7 / / / |

| II-7 / / / | V7 / / / | I / / / | / / / / |

and derivatives thereof (Blues for Alice is rather known as a "Bird blues"). Unfortunately I cannot tell when this started. I guess Christian Miller can.


Anyway I would recommend listening to early Basie, Jay McShann and Andy Kirk.

[Kirk Garrett]

1. Jazz and Blues were not so strongly divided in the days of early jazz (regarding Bessie Smith, Ma Rainey etc.)

2. The term "jazz blues" often refers to the 12 bar pattern of the basic form

| I / / / | IV7 / / / | I / / / | I7 / / / |

| IV7 / / / | / / / / | I / / / | VI7 / / / |

| II-7 / / / | V7 / / / | I / / / | / / / / |

and derivatives thereof (Blues for Alice is rather known as a "Bird blues"). Unfortunately I cannot tell when this started. I guess Christian Miller can.


Anyway I would recommend listening to early Basie, Jay McShann and Andy Kirk.

Ok, that’s a start. Thanks.

For context, I’m working through the Mickey Baker book, and I wanted to find examples of the blues stuff he covers in the form of actual songs with vocalists.

If the Mickey Baker book only referenced song titles, it would be a billion times more helpful than any other addendum that has been made to it that I’ve come across. I realize he could not include those titles for copyright purposes. Now I wish someone else who was familiar with the book could add song titles that could serve as examples of what Baker is teaching.

Even the Michael Joyce site doesn’t offer much in this line.

I actually saw Jay McShann at the Wichita jazz festival in 1984 I believe.


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[Bop Head]

Ok, that’s a start. Thanks.

For context, I’m working through the Mickey Baker book, and I wanted to find examples of the blues stuff he covers in the form of actual songs with vocalists.

If the Mickey Baker book only referenced song titles, it would be a billion times more helpful than any other addendum that has been made to it that I’ve come across. I realize he could not include those titles for copyright purposes. Now I wish someone else who was familiar with the book could add song titles that could serve as examples of what Baker is teaching.

Even the Michael Joyce site doesn’t offer much in this line.

I actually saw Jay McShann at the Wichita jazz festival in 1984 I believe.


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There is a compilation of early McShann called "The Band That Jumps The Blues". In fact the tunes on it were recorded a few years after Charly Parker left the band but the style is pre-bebop.

[Bop Head]

BTW I was really surprised recently at a jam session that no one of the experienced jazzers knew the following variation in bars 5 to 8 which I think is one of the most important in early bebop and jump blues:

~ | IV7 / / / | #IVo / / / | I / II-7 / | III-7 / bIII-7 / | II-7 ~

(diatonic walk-up from I via II to III and chromatically down to II)

e.g. here

[derivation bars 7 to 8:

1.) III-7 as sub for I; both can be connected by diatonic passing chord II-m7;

2.) III-7 as II chord for IV7: III-7 VI7 -> II-7

3.) bIII-7 as chromatic passing chord between III-7 and II-7 substitutes IV7 ]

[Kirk Garrett]

Thanks for turning me onto this early McShann stuff, I’m digging it.


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[StringNavigator]

In the '50s, as a reaction to the intellectualism of Bebop, gospel sounds were blended into jazz as it became commercialised. Many great organists/organ trios became the standard fare for cocktail bars. Now it can be marketed as soul-jazz, jazz-blues, gospel-jazz... As a quick starter or essential listening list, check out some Hard-Bop artists like:

Jazz Organ Trios:
Jimmy Smith, Lonnie Smith, Jack McDuff, Jimmy McGriff, Rhoda Scott, Shirley Scott, Charles Earland, Richard Groove Holmes, John Patton, Baby Face Willette...

Sax:
Cannonball Adderley, Stanley Turrentine, Lou Donaldson, Benny Golson, Dexter Gordon, Roland Kirk ts/fl, Hubert Laws fl/sax, Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis, Clifford Jordan...

Guitar: Kenny Burrell, Wes Montgomery, Grant Green, Pat Martino, George Benson...
(I remember these guitarists as members of Jazz-Organ-Trios.)

Trumpet: Lee Morgan, Art Farmer...
Piano: Horace Silver, Joe Zawinul...
Drums: Art Blakey, Roy Haynes, Elvin Jones, Philly Joe Jones...

Some are dyed in the wool and many other jazz artists dabbled in it and branched off to other projects like the CTI jazz label. Those CTI albums of the early '70s were life-savers.

The following is a working list of song titles I play and listen to:
(not all are prime examples of Jazz-Blues, but...)

00 Jazz Blues Medley:
Bird Lives, Black Coffee, Bloomdido, Blowin’ the Blues Away, Blue Seven, Blues for Stephanie, Blues in the Closet, Blues March, Blues on the Corner, Cedar’s Blues, Chasin’ the Trane, Cool Blues, Doodlin, Eighty-One, Fine and Mellow, Filthy McNasty, Freight Train, Saint Louis Blues, Sippin’ at Bells, Solid, Take the Coltrane, Twisted, Two Degrees East Three Degrees West, Gingerbread Boy, Mr. Day, Now’s the Time, Pfrancin’ No Blues, Relaxin’ at Camarillo, Red Top, When Will the Blues Leave, Dig Dis, Equinox, Eye of the Hurricane, Israel, One for Daddy-O, Señor Blues, Other, Cold Duck Time, The Chicken (Funk),

00 Popular Jazz Blues Medley:
Blues for Alice F Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar Bird Blues
All Blues G Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar (6/8)
Bessie's Blues Eb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Billies Bounce F Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Sonnymoon For Two Bb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Straight No Chaser F Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Tenor Madness Bb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
The Blues Walk Bb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Blue Monk Bb Med Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Blue Trane Eb Med Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Now's The Time F Med Swing, 12-bar
Sandu Eb Med Swing, 12-bar
Turnaround C Med Swing, 12-bar
Footprints Cm Med Swing (or straight), Minor Blues (6/4)
Mr. PC Cm Fast Swing, 12-bar Minor Blues
C Jam Blues C-F-Bb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Freddie The Freeloader Bb Med Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Things Ain't What They Used To Be C-Db-F-Bb, Med Swing, 12-bar
Watermelon Man F Med Funk Boogaloo, 16-bar Blues

00 Common Jazz-Blues Medley:
Alright Okay You Win Eb, Bb Med. Swing, Blues with Bridge
When Will The Blues Leave? F Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Au Privave F Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar jazz blues
Chi-Chi Ab Med/Fast Swing, Bird Blues
Isotope C Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Scotch & Water Bb Med/Fast Swing, Blues with Bridge
Unit Seven C Med/Fast Swing, Blues with Bridge
Walkin' F Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Bluesette Bb, G - Med.Swing, Bird blues (variation in 3/4)
Blues By Five Bb Med.-Fast Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Cheryl C Med.-Fast Swing, 12-bar
One For Daddy-O Bbm Med. Swing, Minor Blues
Bag's Groove F Med. Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Stolen Moments Cm Med. Swing, Minor Blues
Work Song 16-Bar Minor Blues
Moanin, Night Train, Birk’s Works, One Mint Julep, Green Onions, Minor Blues, Route 66,

00 Lesser Known Blues Medley:
All Members F Fast Swing, 12-bar
Barbados F Med/Fast Rhumba/Swing, 12-bar
Eighty-One F Med. Straight Quavers, 12-bar (V-IV)
Homestretch Bb Fast Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Society Red F Med/Slow Swing, 12-bar
Soul Surge F Med. Swing, 12-bar (V-IV) (7/4)
Swinging Shepherd Blues C Med. Swing, 12-bar
Twelve More Bars To Go Bb Med. Swing, 12-bar (V-IV + variation)
A Simple Matter of Conviction Dm Swing, Minor Blues (3/4)
Royal Garden Blues Bb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Blues Connotation Bb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Boogie Stop Shuffle Bbm Fast Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Butch and Butch G Med/Fast Swing, Bird Blues (variation)
Two Bass Hit Db Fast Swing, 12-bar (for solos)
The Sidewinder Eb Med. Funk/Boogaloo, 24-bar (V-IV)
Third Floor Richard F Med. Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)

::

[Kirk Garrett]

Wow, I’m glad I asked!


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[MarkRhodes]

A few years ago, Duke Robillard did an album called "The Acoustic Roots & Blues of Duke Robillard."

This is a song from the '20s, which was before the blues was thought of mainly as a 12-bar (or 8-bar) form. There are more chords and some shifts in time. These were not unusual things back then. I think blues referred more to the lyric and emotional feel than to the chord structure. (Later, early rockabilly songs would lean heavily on the 12-bar form, but no one calls "Blue Suede Shoes" blues though one might now say it is a blues form.)

[MarkRhodes]

In the '50s, as a reaction to the intellectualism of Bebop, gospel sounds were blended into jazz as it became commercialised. Many great organists/organ trios became the standard fare for cocktail bars. Now it can be marketed as soul-jazz, jazz-blues, gospel-jazz... As a quick starter or essential listening list, check out some Hard-Bop artists like:
::

Great post and list. Thanks. This is among my favorite jazz. Loved Jimmy Smith since the first time I heard him. (I had a guitar teacher once who surprised me saying the greatest jazz soloist he had ever seen was Jimmy Smith.) When the blues and gospel and soul faded, I lost interest.

[DawgBone]

I always thought Tiny Grimes exemplified jazz blues.

[Bop Head]

W. C. Handy - St Louis Blues

While St Louis Blues was one of the first songs in the the blues form (and Handy's compositions are actually inspired by the African-American folk music he heard travelling through the rural south) that was published, the blues form it uses is the very basic one. No one has brought an very early example yet of the changes becoming jazzier, e.g. the meas. 9/10 becoming II7-V7 resp. II-7-V7 in meas. and IV7 in meas. 8 leading to it.

[Kirk Garrett]

This is all great information, better than I could have expected. Lots for me to check out here.

I know and love lots of country blues, Delta blues, and Chicago blues and a bit of swingy jumpy stuff. But that’s about it in the blues genre.


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[Bop Head]

This is all great information, better than I could have expected. Lots for me to check out here.

I know and love lots of country blues, Delta blues, and Chicago blues and a bit of swingy jumpy stuff. But that’s about it in the blues genre.


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If you are generally looking for jazzers playing really "bluesy blues" I highly recommend the album "The Alternate Blues" on Pablo Records which features an all-star team consisting of Dizzy Gillespie, Clark Terry and Freddy Hubbard on trumpets, Oscar Peterson on piano, Joe Pass on guitar, Ray Brown on bass and Bobby Durham on drums. Four of the tracks document the try to play an 8 bar blues pattern that always ends in falling back into 12 bars. I like that it goes beyond the clichés of "soul jazz" and yet stays "down home" and "earthy" with vocal phrasing and speech rhythms,

Dizzy always liked to play blues. There is a version with Sonny Stitt and Sonny Rollins of Erskine Hawkin's hit record "After Hours".

[original:]

Another favorite album of mine is "My Mama Pinned A Rose On Me" by Mary Lou Williams who was one of the grey emminences of jazz and who has played everything from boogie-woogie to recording an album with Cecil Taylor in her late years and who, having been a mentor to Monk, Dizzy and Bud Powell around 1940, was called the "Godmother of Bebop". Many shades of jazz blues on this album (YT playlist including the whole record).

[Bop Head]

A few years ago, Duke Robillard did an album called "The Acoustic Roots & Blues of Duke Robillard."

This is a song from the '20s, which was before the blues was thought of mainly as a 12-bar (or 8-bar) form. There are more chords and some shifts in time. These were not unusual things back then. I think blues referred more to the lyric and emotional feel than to the chord structure. (Later, early rockabilly songs would lean heavily on the 12-bar form, but no one calls "Blue Suede Shoes" blues though one might now say it is a blues form.)

This is a song from 1935 and it is 12 bar, only the lyrics do not follow the AAB pattern.

EDIT: I have to correct myself. This is not a version of the Eddie Miller tune but of the Austin Miller tune of the same name recorded only in 1939. 12 bar without AAB lyrics nonetheless.

TBH I am surprised how people seriously interested in playing jazz have difficulties recognizing the 12 bar blues form if bar 2 goes to V instead of IV (aka quick change). (You could extend that to a | I / #Io / | II-7 / V7 / | if you want for the first two bars, IIRC there is a version of Red Top that does that).

I am also surprised sometimes how easily people loose the form if the blues stays on the I in bars 10 and 12 (no turnback).

[KRosser]

The Eddie Lang & Lonnie Johnson duets from the 20s are jazz, blues, and essential IMHO. Lang and Johnson recorded for other artists, sublimely so, but the duets are the core essence of jazz/blues guitar at the time. They were a big inspiration on Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian.

And the rest is history, as they say...

One sample I found on YouTube:

[Bop Head]

The Eddie Lang & Lonnie Johnson duets from the 20s are jazz, blues, and essential IMHO. Lang and Johnson recorded for other artists, sublimely so, but the duets are the core essence of jazz/blues guitar at the time. They were a big inspiration on Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian.

And the rest is history, as they say...

One sample I found on YouTube:

It is funny that going chromatically from third to fifth is so often associated with bebop, probably because Monk used this old cliché in "Blue Monk" (see also "Basin' Street Blues" from 1928).

[sgcim]

It is funny that going chromatically from third to fifth is so often associated with bebop, probably because Monk used this old cliché in "Blue Monk" (see also "Basin' Street Blues" from 1928).

They all got that from Cruella DeVille- If she doesn't scare you, nobody will...

[Bop Head]

They all got that from Cruella DeVille- If she doesn't scare you, nobody will...

From 1961. If you play music from the swing age to younger people most of them will associate it with animated cartoon soundtracks ...

[AllanAllen]

TBH I am surprised how people seriously interested in playing jazz have difficulties recognizing the 12 bar blues form if bar 2 goes to V instead of IV (aka quick change). (You could extend that to a | I / #Io / | II-7 / V7 / | if you want for the first two bars, IIRC there is a version of Red Top that does that).

I am also surprised sometimes how easily people loose the form if the blues stays on the I in bars 10 and 12 (no turnback).

A lot of people seem to learn the blues one way and “that’s how you play the blues.”

[Kirk Garrett]

I’m familiar with Lang and Johnson.

I do like to hear Lonnie on those Folkways records when he is singing the songs. Thanks for reminding me. I think he is more captivating when he is accompanying a song with lyrics. And I like his singing lot.