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Where should I go to listen to the recordings where jazz blues drew its first inspiration?
I assume we’re talking about standards and not Chicago blues or Delta blues (both of which I love, BTW), but I don’t really know.
Who started jazz blues and what songs were they working from?
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07-11-2023 10:11 AM
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I assume that by "jazz blues" you don't mean Ma Rainey and Bessie Smith?
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W. C. Handy - St Louis Blues
Last edited by AllanAllen; 07-11-2023 at 01:04 PM.
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D'you mean like bebop blues, like Blues For Alice?
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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1. Jazz and Blues were not so strongly divided in the days of early jazz (regarding Bessie Smith, Ma Rainey etc.)
2. The term "jazz blues" often refers to the 12 bar pattern of the basic form
| I / / / | IV7 / / / | I / / / | I7 / / / |
| IV7 / / / | / / / / | I / / / | VI7 / / / |
| II-7 / / / | V7 / / / | I / / / | / / / / |
and derivatives thereof (Blues for Alice is rather known as a "Bird blues"). Unfortunately I cannot tell when this started. I guess Christian Miller can.
Anyway I would recommend listening to early Basie, Jay McShann and Andy Kirk.
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
For context, I’m working through the Mickey Baker book, and I wanted to find examples of the blues stuff he covers in the form of actual songs with vocalists.
If the Mickey Baker book only referenced song titles, it would be a billion times more helpful than any other addendum that has been made to it that I’ve come across. I realize he could not include those titles for copyright purposes. Now I wish someone else who was familiar with the book could add song titles that could serve as examples of what Baker is teaching.
Even the Michael Joyce site doesn’t offer much in this line.
I actually saw Jay McShann at the Wichita jazz festival in 1984 I believe.
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Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett
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BTW I was really surprised recently at a jam session that no one of the experienced jazzers knew the following variation in bars 5 to 8 which I think is one of the most important in early bebop and jump blues:
~ | IV7 / / / | #IVo / / / | I / II-7 / | III-7 / bIII-7 / | II-7 ~
(diatonic walk-up from I via II to III and chromatically down to II)
e.g. here
[derivation bars 7 to 8:
1.) III-7 as sub for I; both can be connected by diatonic passing chord II-m7;
2.) III-7 as II chord for IV7: III-7 VI7 -> II-7
3.) bIII-7 as chromatic passing chord between III-7 and II-7 substitutes IV7 ]
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Thanks for turning me onto this early McShann stuff, I’m digging it.
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In the '50s, as a reaction to the intellectualism of Bebop, gospel sounds were blended into jazz as it became commercialised. Many great organists/organ trios became the standard fare for cocktail bars. Now it can be marketed as soul-jazz, jazz-blues, gospel-jazz... As a quick starter or essential listening list, check out some Hard-Bop artists like:
Jazz Organ Trios:
Jimmy Smith, Lonnie Smith, Jack McDuff, Jimmy McGriff, Rhoda Scott, Shirley Scott, Charles Earland, Richard Groove Holmes, John Patton, Baby Face Willette...
Sax:
Cannonball Adderley, Stanley Turrentine, Lou Donaldson, Benny Golson, Dexter Gordon, Roland Kirk ts/fl, Hubert Laws fl/sax, Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis, Clifford Jordan...
Guitar: Kenny Burrell, Wes Montgomery, Grant Green, Pat Martino, George Benson...
(I remember these guitarists as members of Jazz-Organ-Trios.)
Trumpet: Lee Morgan, Art Farmer...
Piano: Horace Silver, Joe Zawinul...
Drums: Art Blakey, Roy Haynes, Elvin Jones, Philly Joe Jones...
Some are dyed in the wool and many other jazz artists dabbled in it and branched off to other projects like the CTI jazz label. Those CTI albums of the early '70s were life-savers.
The following is a working list of song titles I play and listen to:
(not all are prime examples of Jazz-Blues, but...)
00 Jazz Blues Medley:
Bird Lives, Black Coffee, Bloomdido, Blowin’ the Blues Away, Blue Seven, Blues for Stephanie, Blues in the Closet, Blues March, Blues on the Corner, Cedar’s Blues, Chasin’ the Trane, Cool Blues, Doodlin, Eighty-One, Fine and Mellow, Filthy McNasty, Freight Train, Saint Louis Blues, Sippin’ at Bells, Solid, Take the Coltrane, Twisted, Two Degrees East Three Degrees West, Gingerbread Boy, Mr. Day, Now’s the Time, Pfrancin’ No Blues, Relaxin’ at Camarillo, Red Top, When Will the Blues Leave, Dig Dis, Equinox, Eye of the Hurricane, Israel, One for Daddy-O, Señor Blues, Other, Cold Duck Time, The Chicken (Funk),
00 Popular Jazz Blues Medley:
Blues for Alice F Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar Bird Blues
All Blues G Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar (6/8)
Bessie's Blues Eb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Billies Bounce F Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Sonnymoon For Two Bb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Straight No Chaser F Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Tenor Madness Bb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
The Blues Walk Bb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Blue Monk Bb Med Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Blue Trane Eb Med Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Now's The Time F Med Swing, 12-bar
Sandu Eb Med Swing, 12-bar
Turnaround C Med Swing, 12-bar
Footprints Cm Med Swing (or straight), Minor Blues (6/4)
Mr. PC Cm Fast Swing, 12-bar Minor Blues
C Jam Blues C-F-Bb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Freddie The Freeloader Bb Med Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Things Ain't What They Used To Be C-Db-F-Bb, Med Swing, 12-bar
Watermelon Man F Med Funk Boogaloo, 16-bar Blues
00 Common Jazz-Blues Medley:
Alright Okay You Win Eb, Bb Med. Swing, Blues with Bridge
When Will The Blues Leave? F Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Au Privave F Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar jazz blues
Chi-Chi Ab Med/Fast Swing, Bird Blues
Isotope C Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Scotch & Water Bb Med/Fast Swing, Blues with Bridge
Unit Seven C Med/Fast Swing, Blues with Bridge
Walkin' F Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Bluesette Bb, G - Med.Swing, Bird blues (variation in 3/4)
Blues By Five Bb Med.-Fast Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Cheryl C Med.-Fast Swing, 12-bar
One For Daddy-O Bbm Med. Swing, Minor Blues
Bag's Groove F Med. Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Stolen Moments Cm Med. Swing, Minor Blues
Work Song 16-Bar Minor Blues
Moanin, Night Train, Birk’s Works, One Mint Julep, Green Onions, Minor Blues, Route 66,
00 Lesser Known Blues Medley:
All Members F Fast Swing, 12-bar
Barbados F Med/Fast Rhumba/Swing, 12-bar
Eighty-One F Med. Straight Quavers, 12-bar (V-IV)
Homestretch Bb Fast Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Society Red F Med/Slow Swing, 12-bar
Soul Surge F Med. Swing, 12-bar (V-IV) (7/4)
Swinging Shepherd Blues C Med. Swing, 12-bar
Twelve More Bars To Go Bb Med. Swing, 12-bar (V-IV + variation)
A Simple Matter of Conviction Dm Swing, Minor Blues (3/4)
Royal Garden Blues Bb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Blues Connotation Bb Med/Fast Swing, 12-bar
Boogie Stop Shuffle Bbm Fast Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
Butch and Butch G Med/Fast Swing, Bird Blues (variation)
Two Bass Hit Db Fast Swing, 12-bar (for solos)
The Sidewinder Eb Med. Funk/Boogaloo, 24-bar (V-IV)
Third Floor Richard F Med. Swing, 12-bar (V-IV)
::Last edited by StringNavigator; 07-11-2023 at 05:45 PM.
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Wow, I’m glad I asked!
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A few years ago, Duke Robillard did an album called "The Acoustic Roots & Blues of Duke Robillard."
This is a song from the '20s, which was before the blues was thought of mainly as a 12-bar (or 8-bar) form. There are more chords and some shifts in time. These were not unusual things back then. I think blues referred more to the lyric and emotional feel than to the chord structure. (Later, early rockabilly songs would lean heavily on the 12-bar form, but no one calls "Blue Suede Shoes" blues though one might now say it is a blues form.)
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Originally Posted by StringNavigator
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I always thought Tiny Grimes exemplified jazz blues.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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This is all great information, better than I could have expected. Lots for me to check out here.
I know and love lots of country blues, Delta blues, and Chicago blues and a bit of swingy jumpy stuff. But that’s about it in the blues genre.
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Originally Posted by Kirk Garrett
Dizzy always liked to play blues. There is a version with Sonny Stitt and Sonny Rollins of Erskine Hawkin's hit record "After Hours".
[original:]
Another favorite album of mine is "My Mama Pinned A Rose On Me" by Mary Lou Williams who was one of the grey emminences of jazz and who has played everything from boogie-woogie to recording an album with Cecil Taylor in her late years and who, having been a mentor to Monk, Dizzy and Bud Powell around 1940, was called the "Godmother of Bebop". Many shades of jazz blues on this album (YT playlist including the whole record).
Last edited by Bop Head; 07-11-2023 at 10:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
EDIT: I have to correct myself. This is not a version of the Eddie Miller tune but of the Austin Miller tune of the same name recorded only in 1939. 12 bar without AAB lyrics nonetheless.
TBH I am surprised how people seriously interested in playing jazz have difficulties recognizing the 12 bar blues form if bar 2 goes to V instead of IV (aka quick change). (You could extend that to a | I / #Io / | II-7 / V7 / | if you want for the first two bars, IIRC there is a version of Red Top that does that).
I am also surprised sometimes how easily people loose the form if the blues stays on the I in bars 10 and 12 (no turnback).Last edited by Bop Head; 07-12-2023 at 12:22 AM.
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The Eddie Lang & Lonnie Johnson duets from the 20s are jazz, blues, and essential IMHO. Lang and Johnson recorded for other artists, sublimely so, but the duets are the core essence of jazz/blues guitar at the time. They were a big inspiration on Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian.
And the rest is history, as they say...
One sample I found on YouTube:
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Originally Posted by KRosser
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Originally Posted by sgcim
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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I’m familiar with Lang and Johnson.
I do like to hear Lonnie on those Folkways records when he is singing the songs. Thanks for reminding me. I think he is more captivating when he is accompanying a song with lyrics. And I like his singing lot.
naming chords?
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