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Nu-uh. Mickey Baker.
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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06-05-2023 12:14 PM
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Standard responses would be; Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
A1: From swing, and blues.
A2: From bop, and blues.
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I meant from the start. The hard start, I got my instrument today. Mostly being smart. Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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Sorry, thought you were being facetious. I certainly was.
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I was trying. But I’m bad at it. Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
Sorry, thought you were being facetious. I certainly was.
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Yes, find a like minded Guitar Jazzer, then form a duo, learn some songs. Then get out and play anywhere that will have you. Originally Posted by John A.
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I'm sure a teacher would be great if I ever found a good one after decades of spending time in a small room with various instructors who waste my time and money doing things better done online.
What I want: Someone that will listen closely then figure out where I am and what needs to happen given my stated goals. Recognizing that I'm an amateur and I do this for fun. Recognizing my musical tastes. I don't care for bebop. I do like Brubeck and Corea. By some rather generous standard, I have, as an accident of time spent on a hobby I'm passionate about, become a decent player. Figure out the gaps and what might be an interesting and engaging path forward.
What I don't want: How to hold my guitar or sit in the chair. Yes.. I sometimes wrap my thumb. It is not holding me back. Chord charts written out while he's on the clock. I can download these or he can have a xerox in his education materials. Telling me I must transcribe as a perfunctory exercise. When I've already said, I find transcribing a soul killing exercise and I'm not interested. I'm not a 14 yr old looking to become a music professional. Foundations are to be adapted to me.. not the other way round. I'll play documented transcriptions and learn from that.
I'm not trying to be a great jazz player. Not even a good or competent one because I know what that would take. I'm just trying to be a better one and have fun getting there. I've yet to find a teacher that can get out of their lane and address my unique requirements. And all students have unique requirements.
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You could always just dig in with Steve Khan's Wes Montgomery trascriptions book. Originally Posted by Spook410
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Studying with a good to reasonable teacher is always better than dicking around on your own. If you have the time and money you should do it. It won't necessarily be perfect but that's why you're in charge of selecting. A good teacher can show you what you need to do in a few lessons, things that would take you years to implement on your own or that you would never get.
An example with me is I'm taking lessons with an organ master. It's not perfect but hearing him play top level stuff and explaining exactly how to do that is 100 times better than me dicking around on my own. Some weaknesses with him is his approach isn't organized that great. Like I've been taking lessons with him for over a year and he still doesn't know my background. I'll mess up and then he'll say, 'here play root 5th in the bass.' Uh Tony, I studied bass in college in the 00s. I don't need to be told bass beginner basics. Again, not perfect, but still 100 times more productive than dicking around trying to build on nonsense.
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Any learning is good. Whether with a good teacher or with good educational materials.
It all depends on you and your commitment.Nowadays, there are a lot of interesting educational materials in the field of jazz.
The most important thing is playing live with musicians and that's where the jazz musician learns the most.
Lessons with a teacher or studying books are just the beginning. Knowledge is not a secret, you just need to be able to use this knowledge.
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Studying on your own is a given. Without that you'll make zero progress. If you can play live, you should. If you can take lessons, you should.
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This is a good way to look at it. As an adult with time on the instrument, you're paying someone with skills and knowledge to devote their attention to your playing for 30 or 60 minutes, and to give you constructive feedback and to identify and address weaknesses, fill in gaps and build on strengths. Of course there's more to it, but your outlook is a good one to keep in mind. Originally Posted by Spook410
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Originally Posted by Maaj12
Lots of great advice in this thread. I taught for a long time (not music), and I’ve had a couple of phenomenal music teachers (non-guitar instruments), and it was my great pleasure to fire a terrible guitar teacher last year, so I feel qualified to add a couple of thoughts. Originally Posted by Spook410
Maaj12, I think that Spook410 just gave a great example of goal setting. Pick one or two SMART examples, identify a reputable teacher in your area, and then go shopping.
Figure out what you expect from a transactional relationship. Do you like to spend money on name brands and brag to your friends? If you’re paying money, do you need to be in charge? What’s your interpersonal communication style, and who do you communicate best with? Do you personalize transactions? Etc.
Shop until you find a good match. Try them out. If you made a bad decision, then feel comfortable moving on to someone else.
Beyond those nuts and bolts, maybe treat this as a problem you can iterate through. Find someone you can work with for awhile, go play and study on your own for awhile, then find another teacher when the time is right.
Every great teacher I’ve ever known shared one goal for their students: independence. Meet the student where they are, figure out how you can help them, and know when it’s time to get out of the way.
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Maybe some perspective is warranted... Originally Posted by Maaj12
In days of olde...
Being a musician was a job or even a career. Men, with families, would put on a suit and hat and walk with their instrument to a restaurant, hotel or nightclub and get paid to play. They were part of the furniture. I seen this as a small child. Women in the neighbourhood would dress up and dance in floor-shows, part-time or full. Music was a way to earn a living and put food on the table. Baby needed new shoes... Musicians were like maids, butlers, servers, chauffeurs, bartenders or waiters. It was a valid way to earn a living.
That's where music teachers came in. They taught you how to read music on your instrument so you could function in some musical ensemble, group, or band. If you wanted more, they could teach you harmony and arranging. You paid your erudite, qualified, educated, and certificated music teacher a good buck and then you could go out and earn a living.
Today, it's different. People have been sidelined. The Western Civilisation has been disbanded with no replacement in sight. Being a musician is just not in demand. We have recordings where one can entertain millions... forever. The cabal that dictates our culture wants young acrobats with plastic surgery running around like stage monkeys. Music is now the same song played over and over, from memory. You don't even need to know very much about music at all.
What you pay a guitar teacher can never be recouped. Would you pay a college for a three year course to learn auto mechanics if you knew that manufacturers were switching over to computerised vehicles with a battery as the prime mover? I doubt it. But people are eager and willing to pay $60 out of pocket for less than 1 hour. And not to read music, but to show licks and tricks. And there's always more to learn... Pay Pay Pay!
I took only two lessons in my life as a working teenager. The first was the intro to Book No.1. The second was with the assistant who chatted his way through the entire 45 minutes. I never went back. I've since learned four instruments on my own. Can I play at Carnegie Hall? No, but how many Quarter Million Berklee grads are playing at Carnegie Hall?
Stick to the books and play with others, but especially play along with recordings. Everything is in the books. It just takes perseverance and hard work.
Do you want to pay a teacher to spoon feed you on chord subs, standard changes, noodling quavers at 200 beats per minute? What's it all for? To show off or beat the next guy? Because there's no money in it. The Monkees weren't hired for their musical skills. It was all based on how cute you could be for a TV audience of pubescent girls. Now it's all like that.
Do the math. Where do you fit in to this. How much money are you willing to spend on a journey without a destination?
Instead... Learn Earn Save Invest Retire-Early. Find a quality wife looking for a quality man with an education and career to raise a family with. GUITAR IS A HOBBY!
It's enough to buy a guitar and gear. You can spend your spare time pursuing a musical hobby IFF you get your ducks in order. In fact, the pleasure of a Guitar Hobby is the self-satisfaction you get from learning it yourself, on your own. It's a journey. You don't need to give away your money to a guide. DIY. Buy some highly recommended guitar books and work them. There's chat boards and guitar clubs to discuss guitar possibilities. Or form one in your locale.
Teacher? Teach yourself. As you improve you will be ready for advancement and you will know what you are looking for.
Ask yourself, "After I spend all this money on lessons, how much money can I make." Work overtime instead and invest in the stock market. Spend some time and money on learning how to make money.
All the teachers I see are broke without a wife, living in a fleabag rooming house or motel. Maybe they live in their car. They dropped a quarter million of their parents' retirement money at Berklee. Now they want to parlay that into scamming money from you. What can you learn from these guys? (How to end up becoming a music teacher yourself?)
::Last edited by StringNavigator; 06-08-2023 at 01:47 PM.
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One of the problems with being self taught these days is the availability of information and music. The supply is beyond overwhelming. It's too easy to flit from one thing to another. A teacher can help keep you on a useful track.
Back in the day, there were only a handful of books and you had to buy records - which weren't cheap. So, most people I knew had a handful of jazz records and studied them carefully.
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Yes. I'd think about a new teacher.
My daughter is 13. She's never practiced more than an hour in a day, ever.
She started at 10 years old with a pretty good friend of ours who is an excellent musician. She and his daughter are good friends so we went with him first. He was going to school to teach at the time. She really didn't get much out of it and didn't enjoy it.
Her lessons were 30 minutes 1 day/week.
I always knew that she would benefit from another very well known teacher and good friend and so after we brought her her first Stratocaster ( birthday gift ) she went 1 day a week for 30 minutes and at 13 years old my girl is a bad ass guitar player. Teaching is everything. At first anyway.
So yeah, sorry to ramble, but after a couple of years if your gut is questioning certain aspects of the whole teaching process?
Maybe it's time. Good luck to you.
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You've got to know what you want. Once you have that you can find it and apply yourself to it. If you don't know and it's all a vague idea then you'll have a problem.
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This is true. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I can also add that some people learn easier and others have a problem with it.
A good persistent and patient teacher is the solution.
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If you have contact with a good teacher at the beginning of your studies, it is very good. Originally Posted by coldstring
A good foundation in the beginning is for your whole life.
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Of course the decision also depends on the individual circumstances. An unmotivated teenager who is an absolute beginner is in a different position than an adult who is a beginner in jazz but has played guitar for 20 years, have taken lessons in the past, good at teaching themselves and knows some decent player to play with.
Most people maybe lie somewhere in between. I was close to the latter several years ago when I decided to learn jazz. Maybe that's why my experience with private teachers wasn't so great. I didn't think they were bad when I was taking lessons but looking back, I didn't really learn much from them. Perhaps I couldn't find a teacher who was a good match. I did benefit from playing in workshop bands however.Last edited by Tal_175; 06-08-2023 at 07:47 AM.
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Whew, man. That was a wild ride. Originally Posted by StringNavigator
FYI I’m a full-time guitar teacher, I’m not (quite) broke, I am married, I don’t live in Oliver Twist’s orphanage, I didn’t go to Berklee, and I didn’t spend a quarter million dollars on school where I did go.
For what it’s worth, Guitar probably *is* a hobby and people spend money on their hobbies all the time. Or they don’t. It’s a hobby, so do whatever the heck you want. Or don’t.
…. I do like the image of roving bands of rogue guitar teachers, prowling the streets, picking pockets, stealing from shopkeeps, and doing the occasional set-piece dance number though.
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It's also important to find the right type of teacher for you if you do want to take lessons.
Three types of teachers are common in big cities, IMO:
- Young and ambitious players who have dreams of becoming the next Kriesberg: Avoid these if you're a jazz beginner. They are in their early 30's, late 20's (you probably don't wanna go younger than that for jazz), they are trying to make it in the scene. They are just prostituting themselves to pay the rent when they teach. Their minds are occupied with majestic goals and they don't really give shit about teaching. But, but ... if you're an advanced player who is close to jazz gigging level and trying to network, these type of players are perfect. They were where you're at not long ago. They gig a lot. They have time to socialize and they are all about networking. They probably recently graduated from a jazz program. If you develop good relations with them, and you play well they may hook you up with some people.
- Older players who are mostly retired from the scene: I think they are a better choice for jazz beginners who need some hand holding. They tend to take teaching more seriously.
- Jacks of all trades: They teach everything. Metal, classical, country, jazz, rhythm, solo, improvisation, song writing you name it, they'll teach it. They are good for beginners.
There are of course exceptions. For example, a jack-of-all-trades teacher maybe a great jazz teacher if their main thing is jazz. Some of the younger pro's prioritize teaching over a gigging career. So my categories are really broad generalizations. But these types do exist.
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Im 32. Originally Posted by Tal_175
Holy hell. I should probably leave. I’m getting brutalized over here.
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To be fair, my description of the type was more nuanced than just the age. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I also put a caveat in the end.
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I’m just joking. Just in combination with “Oliver Twist, guitar teacher” up there, I got a bit of a black eye just from reading. Originally Posted by Tal_175
Anyway — for what it’s worth, I’ve met more jaded, washed-up lazy guitar teachers in late-middle-age than I care to count. So age is just a number on this one.
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