Wynton Marsalis on the importance of aggressive inspiration in education ...

[ruger9]

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

I don't think so. Take the UK. Our infant mortality has fallen and fallen across the past 100 years, as our population has risen and risen! Why do you think that is?


UK infant mortality rate 2021 | Statista

You keep harping on that one point, and then when I do point out some failings (long wait times for care), you scream "yeah but but but... it's the torries fault!" LOL

That's always the answer isn't it? Conservatism of any kind is evil. That's your answer for everything. Thank God the UK had Winston Churchill when he was needed... if you'd left it up to Chamberlain, it would have been far, far worse for you.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

That's scary. If you ever take a look at Fox News, Breitbart etc., even briefly, there is a constant relentless outrage narrative of "walls are collapsing on us because of the left". You just check the headlines, every single one of them has this apocalyptic tone of "The left is out the get us", "Everybody is dying in the blue cities", "Every child is gonna become trans in 5 years because socialism" etc.

Millions of people are uncritically believing everything they see in these sources and they just keep coming back for more.They find some sort of comfort in one sided narratives that do not challenge how they make sense of the world. As soon as they see a more balanced coverage, they get disappointed and move on to even a more partizan, tribalist network. So these sources get trapped in a vicious cycle of more and more detached from reality coverage in order not to lose ratings.

Yeah well, some traditional lefties are pushing back on the increasing insanity of the left, too. There's a new one every day, including today.

Bill Maher sounds more like Ronald Reagan every week, then catches himself and slightly re-adjusts for his core audience, lol.

[Tal_175]

Yeah well, some traditional lefties are pushing back on the increasing insanity of the left, too. There's a new one every day, including today.

Bill Maher sounds more like Ronald Reagan every week, then catches himself and slightly re-adjusts for his core audience, lol.

I was expecting you to come to the defence of Breitbart's outrage, apocalyptic narrative. I have observed in the past that you are one of those people whose mental model of the world is entirely shaped by uncritical acceptance of Fox News, Breitbart headlines.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

indeed! The United States is a huge place and one solution never fits all. What I described is what worked in a large but poor city on the East Coast. But I do think we could figure it out, just because I think the United States has a knack for pulling off what is seemingly impossible.

I've been reading American Nations by Colin Woodard (Loading interface...) that basically describes the United States as being made up of 11 different nations, depending on where and how they were founded. The Yankee states were founded on completely different ideas and principles than the Deep South, Appalachia, the Midwest, the Far West, the areas originally settled by the French etc.

To bring this back around to the importance of education in music, my hometown of DC has it's own form of music; DC Go Go. It doesn't exist anywhere else. It doesn't exist in Baltimore (they have their own Baltimore Club music). DC Go Go was started by one dude, Chuck Brown, back in the 70s. He was a jazz guitarist that found himself losing gigs to DJs, so he beefed up his percussion section and just played endless sets that segued between tunes. Because DC (and PG County, Maryland) had strong music education in their schools, there were a lot of great musicians that ended up playing Go Go, where they could make a living by playing music. There was Trouble Funk, Experience Unlimited, Northeast Groovers, Little Benny & the Masters, Junkyard Band, etc. Sometimes they would play shows with punk rock bands; that's where I got to hear it live. There was one dude in town who would set up a table with cassettes of choice live recordings outside of Metro stations. Some of them are here: User Account

Point being, there wouldn't have been gogo without decent music education programs in the schools.

I love California, at least the "old" version of about 5 years ago. They like to brag that their economy is larger than most countries around the world - and it has been for a looooong time.

They were looking at universal health care recently. What happened? $$$$$$

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I was expecting you to come to the defence of Breitbart's outrage, apocalyptic narrative. I have observed in the past that you are one of those whose mental model of the world is shaped by uncritical acceptance of Fox News, Breitbart headlines.

Uncritical? You have to be joking.

And what do YOU think of Maher's recent points, eh? Are you hiding something?

[Tal_175]

Uncritical? You have to be joking.

No, not in the slightest.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Not in the slightest.

How childish. Can't you see it is just as easy to say the same about you, in the opposite direction?

[Tal_175]

How childish. Can't you see it is just as easy to say the same about you, in the opposite direction?

You can say it, but it won't be true in my case. I don't post links to blatantly partisan, verifiably false articles from the "opposite direction" sources to support my claims as you have done in the past.

Regarding Maher. Sorry I don't follow Maher or think he is a significant force of deep thought. But yes, there is a range of views that come from the left.

[James W]

You keep harping on that one point, and then when I do point out some failings (long wait times for care), you scream "yeah but but but... it's the torries fault!" LOL

That's always the answer isn't it? Conservatism of any kind is evil. That's your answer for everything. Thank God the UK had Winston Churchill when he was needed... if you'd left it up to Chamberlain, it would have been far, far worse for you.

Chamberlain was a Tory.

I noticed you completely ignored the fact that I disproved your point about health care quality falling due to rising population.

[supersoul]

I love California, at least the "old" version of about 5 years ago. They like to brag that their economy is larger than most countries around the world - and it has been for a looooong time.

They were looking at universal health care recently. What happened? $$$$$$

I'm not sure why you replied to my post, because it had nothing to do with California or healthcare!

[m_d]

No need. Here is a quote from Chomsky and Herman's Manufacturing Consent. I have added the bold font to draw your attention to the important info:



Cambodian genocide denial - Wikipedia

See also: The boring truth about Chomsky: he does not support Pol Pot - ABC News

In any case, once a book is published, how does one go about purging it?

In the same Wikipedia article (which is new to me):

Some Western scholars believed that the Khmer Rouge would free Cambodia from colonialism, capitalism, and the ravages of American bombing and invasion during the Vietnam War. Cambodian scholar Sophal Ear has titled the pro-Khmer Rouge intelligentsia as the "Standard Total Academic View on Cambodia" (STAV). The STAV, which he said included among its adherents almost all Cambodian scholars in the Western world, "hoped for, more than anything, a socialist success story with all the romantic ingredients of peasants, fighting imperialism, and revolution."^[3] Author William Shawcross was another critic of the STAV academics. Shawcross's views were endorsed and summarized by human-rights activist David Hawk: the West was indifferent to the atrocities taking place in Cambodia due to "the influence of anti-war academics on the American left who obfuscated Khmer Rouge behavior, denigrated the post-1975 refugee reports, and denounced the journalists who got those stories."<sup>[9]

Looks to me like some attempts at damage control since my interest in Sophal Ear's irrefutable, and damning work. Unfortunately Wikipedia cannot deny it.
Sophal Ear dissects Chomsky and company's methods of intellectual dishonesty in excruciating detail. I recommend you read him. How many times did Chomsky revise "Manufacturing consent", so we can know the quote you mention is actually original? Ear writes about it, as I remember. Go read it.
As to the ABC News article, written in the "fact checker" style, you meant that as a joke, I suppose ?</sup>

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I'm not sure why you replied to my post, because it had nothing to do with California or healthcare!

No offense. Saw it as a continuation of post #390. I'm glad the ACA was able to assist you.

[ruger9]

Chamberlain was a Tory.

I noticed you completely ignored the fact that I disproved your point about health care quality falling due to rising population.

Not at all. But you haven't proven quality doesn't fall due to rising population. So here we are. That's only half the issue anyway: this is a national, not world, issue. Meaning, each country has to decide for itself what does and doesn't work. If you think universal HC in the UK is a grand success, that's great. I'm sure there are other people who live there that disagree with you. Because it's all about perspective. Right, so here in the US... anything you can point out about UK HC is invalid. We are a much larger population, with a different govt than you have there. Just because something works in the UK does not mean it will work here in the US. Just look at blood pudding. LOL

In the meantime, your opinion of US HC is irrelevant, as my opinion of UK HC is. Neither of us have have skin in the other's game. You vote for things in your country, I'll vote for things in mine.

Chamberlain was a weak, mealy-mouthed, coward. Churchill was a conservative, thank God. The WORLD thanks God for Churchill.

[James W]

In the same Wikipedia article (which is new to me):

Some Western scholars believed that the Khmer Rouge would free Cambodia from colonialism, capitalism, and the ravages of American bombing and invasion during the Vietnam War. Cambodian scholar Sophal Ear has titled the pro-Khmer Rouge intelligentsia as the "Standard Total Academic View on Cambodia" (STAV). The STAV, which he said included among its adherents almost all Cambodian scholars in the Western world, "hoped for, more than anything, a socialist success story with all the romantic ingredients of peasants, fighting imperialism, and revolution."^[3] Author William Shawcross was another critic of the STAV academics. Shawcross's views were endorsed and summarized by human-rights activist David Hawk: the West was indifferent to the atrocities taking place in Cambodia due to "the influence of anti-war academics on the American left who obfuscated Khmer Rouge behavior, denigrated the post-1975 refugee reports, and denounced the journalists who got those stories."<sup>[9]

Looks to me like some attempts at damage control since my interest in Sophal Ear's irrefutable, and damning work. Unfortunately Wikipedia cannot deny it.
Sophal Ear dissects Chomsky and company's methods of intellectual dishonesty in excruciating detail. I recommend you read him. How many times did Chomsky revise "Manufacturing consent", so we can know the quote you mention is actually original? Ear writes about it, as I remember. Go read it.
As to the ABC News article, written in the "fact checker" style, you meant that as a joke, I suppose ?</sup>

Interesting. That excerpt from the wikipedia article doesn't even mention Chomsky. I notice you've moved on from claiming Chomsky 'supported' the Khmer Rouge to that he's guilty of 'intellectual dishonesty'. Please, direct me to some actual quotes from Chomsky that prove this, that shouldn't be too hard, right? Anyway, it's quite common for people to traduce Chomsky, ascribe false opinions to him etc. It makes no sense that he would support a murderous authoritarian regime because he's a libertarian-socialist known for his freedom of speech advocacy. It's just that he directs most of his attention to the crimes of his own country, and is a consistent moral voice in pointing out American exceptionalism and the hypocrisy involved etc. so he ends up annoying people involved in spreading propaganda for the US. Also note that he wrote this article: The Soviet Union Versus Socialism (chomsky.info)

And no, the ABC article was not meant as a joke. Read it. Also read the following, a comment left on this video which eloquently sums up the whole Chomsky/Cambodia issue, and listen to the video:

initially, Chomsky was simply asking for clarity over the use of one specific source (the book "Cambodia: Year Zero" by Francois Ponchaud, 1978) in one specific article by Jean Lacouture. the book was one of the first to document atrocities in Cambodia and Lacouture was the first to review it. Lacouture references pol-pot "boasting" about 2 million dead. Chomsky gets hold of Ponchaud's book and notices that actually, Ponchaud actually says something a bit different: that 800,000 people were killed in the American bombing of Cambodia in the first half of the decade, and that the Khmer Rouge were responsible for 1.2 million deaths from all causes (execution, starvation etc), with this information coming from the American embassy in Cambodia (Ponchaud was a Jesuit priest there). Chomsky notes some more discrepancies so writes to Lacouture personally to ask why his is abusing Ponchaud's source material. Lacouture publishes a response making some clarifications and corrections but ultimately says the numbers don't matter/aren't the point. Chomsky thinks it does matter and that it's not OK to sloppily misquote books in articles that then become very popular and thus broadly disseminate false information.


later, Chomsky wrote a book in which he used this example of sloppy use of source material to make the point that when the murderers are communist, certain types of journalists are often happy to play loose with the figures, and compared this with western press coverage of east timor, where the violence received little to no international attention, because there was no political interest there. some detractors have tried to skew this to claim that Chomsky is downplaying Cambodian genocide, however anyone who has read anything Chomsky has written on Cambodia, will know that this is not the case, as he relays brutal accounts of the violence perpetrated there. to be completely clear, in this book (Manufacturing Consent, one part of a two volume analysis of the American propaganda system), Chomsky and his co-author explicitly state that the total estimate may well end up at the 2 million mark as further data comes in, but that tentatively they side with what they argue is the most reliable source at the time (before 1988), which was the American intelligence services estimate, which they take as a conservative minimum.


it should be noted that Chomsky was never making estimates about how many people died in Cambodia himself, but about the way that source material is used sloppily when it serves a particular political interest (look at the murderous commies!), and how source material is ignored if it doesn't serve that interest (sorry people being murdered by non-commies, we don't care about you).


the whole drama around this issue has been purposefully initiated by his right-wing detractors as a lighting rod for those who have a gripe with Chomsky for various reasons and who won't bother to look into the details, leading to outbursts and accusations such as that documented in the YT link and also your own comments. indeed, this is the intended purpose of the smear. it has been mildly successful as a tool of derailment, as a character assassination, particularly with those within the ranks of the right-wing eager to have Chomsky's broad body of work discredited with a lazy but convenient "commie apologist" slur (Chomsky is neither a communist, nor Marxist, nor commie apologist. let me assure you, he thinks Stalin was despicable as much as the next guy)

[James W]

Chamberlain was a weak, mealy-mouthed, coward. Churchill was a conservative, thank God. The WORLD thanks God for Churchill.

Both were conservatives. Churchill was hardly what one could describe as a principled antifascist, and he was guilty of atrocities.

Read this:

The dark side of Winston Churchill | The Independent | The Independent

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Under the Wynton article we're now doin' the Khmer Rouge?

Up next - EV semi-trucks!

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Getting back to passion for music...

https://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...er-tchaikovsky

[ruger9]

Both were conservatives. Churchill was hardly what one could describe as a principled antifascist, and he was guilty of atrocities.

Read this:

The dark side of Winston Churchill | The Independent | The Independent

Yes, he had an imperialist streak. As did Teddy Roosevelt. Not a fan of that trait in either man. No man is perfect. But if not for Chamberlain, the UK most likely would have been flying the swastika, albeit begrudgingly... but that brings us back to Voltaire, and to the liberty/safety balance.

I still really want to hear what you THINK my position is on universal healthcare.

[supersoul]

No offense. Saw it as a continuation of post #390. I'm glad the ACA was able to assist you.

Then no offense as I put you on my ignore list.

[ruger9]

Then no offense as I put you on my ignore list.

Aw come one, don't pick up your toys and stomp home....

[supersoul]

Aw come one, don't pick up your toys and stomp home....

I'm not going anywhere! I see the ignore button as a way to pull the weeds in my internet garden.

[DawgBone]

Point being, there wouldn't have been gogo without decent music education programs in the schools.

I had music education in my schools. The net effect was torturing parents with bad recorder playing in elementary. Middle school offered a guitar course. The teacher was worse at guitar than i was and.lemme tell you I was bad. HS jazz band didn't accept guitar. I think music Ed in schools mostly benefits educators who play music people won't pay to listen to. Otherwise those genres would be a completely dead end road. It's a grift.

[Peter C]

Who gives a sh*t about Winston Churchill on a jazz guitar forum? I can see threads like this being a magnet to real players. Not.

[ruger9]

Who gives a sh*t about Winston Churchill on a jazz guitar forum? I can see threads like this being a magnet to real players. Not.

I actually agree with that- who gives a sh*t about universal healthcare on a jazz forum? I'm all for talking ABOUT MUSIC. But when others start in with socialism nonsense, I'm not going to let it lie.

[DawgBone]

I actually agree with that- who gives a sh*t about universal healthcare on a jazz forum? I'm all for talking ABOUT MUSIC. But when others start in with socialism nonsense, I'm not going to let it lie.

When wynton mentions danceable jazz its not surprising people bring up other topics instead, lol.