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I still don't think you've grasped the cage analogy I got from Chomsky, posted above. Read it again, until you comprehend it.
Originally Posted by ruger9
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04-30-2023 12:47 PM
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This thread is about Wynton Marsalis' POV regarding Jazz Ed, riiiiiiiight?
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Ah. But that's where you go wrong- Universal healthcare -does not equal- good government. As has been illustrated with our universal healthcare for our veterans system. Originally Posted by James W
And "your accounting of why our vet healthcare system is a failure"? That's rich- maybe you should call DC and tell them you have it all figured out? It's very tiring debating someone who's confirmation bias is so strong that their mind remains completely closed that they could be wrong in any way. It's kind of childish, actually. I would LOVE to have a totally free, no wait list, high quality, universal healthcare care system in America. But I know why that will never happen (and why it has never happened anywhere else, including your country.). Because nothing can be perfect. So you have to start balancing out the negatives with the positives. And much like the balance between liberty and security, everyone has a different OPINION (note I used the word "opinion", not "fact", as they are 2 different things) on where that balancing point is.
As far as "moving the goalposts", that is pretty much your entire problem: you are so rigid in your thinking, you refuse to MOVE at all: refuse to examine the possibility you could be wrong about anything. You KNOW what the answer is, everyone else is just too ignorant to realize that. If the world's governments would just listen to you and institute universal healthcare TOMORROW- everyone would see that it really is the answer and you could be given a Nobel prize.
Even our founding fathers here (who I ASSURE you were more wise and intelligent then either you or I are) gave us founding documents that had the ability to be changed. Why? Because they were wise and intelligent enough to know they did not have all the answers. No one ever does. Except you. Very tiring. It's like you are more interested in "winning" the debate and patting yourself on the back (confirmation bias) than on attempting to learn anything you might not know, because then you would have to admit there's something you don't have the answer for.
Once more: when my government has shown they can be trusted to run the vet's SMALL healthcare system WELL (timely, affordably, high quality), ONLY THEN are they perhaps worth the trust of allowing them to try a nationwide system. But they have to EARN it.
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Voltaire and I comprehend it just fine. Originally Posted by James W
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Who? Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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Supposed to be by who? For me this is another example where you create strawmen by using terms like "these people" and then stating what these so called "these people" believe or support. Originally Posted by ruger9
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I don’t think something has to be inherently evil to do evil
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Firstly mate, me and others have posted evidence to back up our claims about the US health care system as compared to countries of comparable income. Why should I and others budge from our position when you've offered no evidence to contradict our evidence? Originally Posted by ruger9
You're accusing me of not budging, when you yourself have refused to budge from your position, despite the evidence we've posted that contradicts what you've said. Yes, I refuse to move at all - but so do you, and I don't see why I should move given you've posted precisely 0 amount of evidence to suggest the US health care system is no worse than other comparable countries.
I offered an explanation why your vets' service sucked - though TBH you haven't posted any evidence that that is the case so I am just taking your word for it - but you haven't even offered an explanation for why it's a failure. Why is the US government different to all the other rich countries that have universal health care which is cheaper with better outcomes (though, for the umpteenth time, not perfect). In the UK we trusted our government to provide universal health care and it produced results, what is different about your government? Do tell.
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While I support your overall POV over those of the other Americans you're debating here, you are still overgeneralizing about what happens here in the USA. Originally Posted by James W
E.g., there is no such thing as a "US health care system". That is one of the major problems. There are multiple systems. E.g. Workers Compensation: if one gets hurt on the job, there is an entire separate A to Z system that handles everything (filings a claim, getting medical treatment, paying for said treatment, denying non-necessary treatments, utilization etc.
But if one is a vet their claims are not covered by Work Comp, but instead a separate system for Vets. Then there is the group-health insurance system, but that doesn't cover many over a certain age and thus there is yet another system for them (Medicare). If one is involved in an auto accident that was not 'on the job' then auto-insurance covers the medical portion.
All of these various forms of insurance leads to 10s of billion of dollars spend on lawyers to determine which form of insurance must pony-up for the medical expenses. There are those with no form of health insurance coverage. They pay nothing into any system, and since for-pay providers refuse to see such people, they receive their treatment in ER rooms (which are required by law to not turn anyone away) or free-clinics.
Note that my specialty is the US Work Comp system. This is a fully socialized, closed system that is highly effective. We are having our 100-year anniversary of this specialized medical system. My opinion is that the USA would be better off with one single system modeled like the Work Comp system: No profits for administrators, no for-profit health insurance companies, with medical providers \ professionals \ hospitals, etc. remaining part of the private sector with highly regulated fee-for-service fee schedules.Last edited by jameslovestal; 05-01-2023 at 12:05 PM.
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I want you to tell me what YOU think my position is. Mate. Originally Posted by James W
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This is a wonderful dream. And I share it. I just know it will NEVER happen (the way you describe it) in the US. Human greed and corruption will never allow it work that way. There are too many hands in too many back pockets; to many backs getting rubbed reciprocally. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
The people of America "voting for" a "universal healthcare system" (meaning, voting for people who promise to do it well) is like giving the fox the keys to the henhouse. I wish it were not so, but it is. In many ways our government is so corrupt (99% of people have NO IDEA because they don't spend any time looking into this stuff; they just watch CNN or whatever and think that's the whole story), it's like a massive version of the mafia. And taxpayer money is the teat.
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Does anyone under the age of 50 watch CNN? Originally Posted by ruger9
in the UK CNN just seems a bit … well… irrelevant. US centric obviously, with an American style of news presentation.Last edited by Christian Miller; 05-01-2023 at 07:06 AM.
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Actually does anyone watch CNN?
CNN Hits 10-Year Low As Fox News Glides To Victory In Cable News Ratings
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Obamacare was a wonderful thing for me. Having been without health insurance for most of my adult life I finally had a safety net in case something bad happened to me. I got it through Chase Brexton, a LGBQT clinic in Baltimore that was open to anyone. Through them I finally had a general practitioner whom I could visit, dental. I also had 2 years of private talk therapy, which was mightily helpful because I was in my early 40s yet below the poverty line despite working my ass off in the arts, including teaching at the local art college. Originally Posted by ruger9
I'm just offering this is a counter example to your suggestion that universal health care is an impossible dream, because at least for me and a few other people I knew it worked extremely well. Just basic healthcare that's all, but it's a game changer if you don't have it.
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When confronted, far from owning up to his disgusting support for a genocidal regime, Chomsky simply purged all of his published work from any incriminating text, 1984-style. This is all documented. I read a thesis about it, with dozens of references. That might satisfy your curiosity. Do you want me to dig it up for you ? Originally Posted by James W
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That's great! I never said a socialized system couldn't work well for some people. My point all along is that healthcare quality goes down, the larger a population gets. Much like government: a government of a country with only 5000 inhabitants can be kept small, be easily watch-dogged, and run quite well. A government for 300 million is a completely different story. It doesn't just "upscale" like that, unfortunately. So I'm saying my opinion is that QUALITY universal healthcare FOR ALL is an impossible dream, and so far, that is exactly how it's worked across the world... with the smaller countries having more success and the larger countries having less success. Nature of the beast/humanity. Originally Posted by supersoul
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Yeah, they've been talking for quite awhile now. Pick your news source: ABC, BBC, NPR... all same. You're always going to get a narrative instead of news. True journalism barely exists anymore. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Probably not, as that's information that goes against his already-decided narrative. Originally Posted by m_d
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No need. Here is a quote from Chomsky and Herman's Manufacturing Consent. I have added the bold font to draw your attention to the important info: Originally Posted by m_d
Cambodian genocide denial - WikipediaAs we also noted from the first paragraph of our earlier review of this material, to which we will simply refer here for specifics, “there is no difficulty in documenting major atrocities and oppression, primarily from the reports of refugees”; there is little doubt that “the record of atrocities in Cambodia is substantial and often gruesome” and represents “a fearful toll”; “when the facts are in, it may turn out that the more extreme condemnations were in fact correct,” although if so, “it will in no way alter the conclusions we have reached on the central question addressed here: how the available facts were selected, modified, or sometimes invented to create a certain image offered to the general population. The answer to this question seems clear, and it is unaffected by whatever may yet be discovered about Cambodia in the future.”
See also: The boring truth about Chomsky: he does not support Pol Pot - ABC News
In any case, once a book is published, how does one go about purging it?
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That's scary. If you ever take a look at Fox News, Breitbart etc., even briefly, there is a constant relentless outrage narrative of "walls are collapsing on us because of the left". You just check the headlines, every single one of them has this apocalyptic tone of "The left is out the get us", "Everybody is dying in the blue cities", "Every child is gonna become trans in 5 years because socialism" etc. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Millions of people are uncritically believing everything they see in these sources and they just keep coming back for more.They find some sort of comfort in one sided narratives that do not challenge how they make sense of the world. As soon as they see a more balanced coverage, they get disappointed and move on to even a more partizan, tribalist network. So these sources get trapped in a vicious cycle of more and more detached from reality coverage in order not to lose ratings.
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And on CNN, MSNBC, ABC, BBC the narrative is "we must stop the fascist conservatives!!!" Pick your poison. I pick neither. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Do you have any evidence to support this claim? Originally Posted by ruger9
I don't think so. Take the UK. Our infant mortality has fallen and fallen across the past 100 years, as our population has risen and risen! Why do you think that is?
UK infant mortality rate 2021 | Statista
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Yes, they all have biases. Sometimes their biases shape their news in such a dumb way that they even hurt their own causes. I find the big networks unwatchable anyway because of their safe, commercialized, insincere format. Originally Posted by ruger9
The problem is that the smaller news sources tend to be even less accountable and more propanagist. So, navigating news is an art form.
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How much do you know about the BBC? Originally Posted by ruger9
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indeed! The United States is a huge place and one solution never fits all. What I described is what worked in a large but poor city on the East Coast. But I do think we could figure it out, just because I think the United States has a knack for pulling off what is seemingly impossible. Originally Posted by ruger9
I've been reading American Nations by Colin Woodard (Loading interface...) that basically describes the United States as being made up of 11 different nations, depending on where and how they were founded. The Yankee states were founded on completely different ideas and principles than the Deep South, Appalachia, the Midwest, the Far West, the areas originally settled by the French etc.
To bring this back around to the importance of education in music, my hometown of DC has it's own form of music; DC Go Go. It doesn't exist anywhere else. It doesn't exist in Baltimore (they have their own Baltimore Club music). DC Go Go was started by one dude, Chuck Brown, back in the 70s. He was a jazz guitarist that found himself losing gigs to DJs, so he beefed up his percussion section and just played endless sets that segued between tunes. Because DC (and PG County, Maryland) had strong music education in their schools, there were a lot of great musicians that ended up playing Go Go, where they could make a living by playing music. There was Trouble Funk, Experience Unlimited, Northeast Groovers, Little Benny & the Masters, Junkyard Band, etc. Sometimes they would play shows with punk rock bands; that's where I got to hear it live. There was one dude in town who would set up a table with cassettes of choice live recordings outside of Metro stations. Some of them are here: User Account
Point being, there wouldn't have been gogo without decent music education programs in the schools.
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