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its also possible to know theory and not use it. I know tons of theory that never surfaces in my actual playing. Theory is intellectual, musical performance including improvisation is embodied.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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08-10-2022 05:39 AM
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I would be very surprised if Christian didn't explain that Hard Bop and even Modal styles were invented by guys who had a Bebop background. If you take the Bebop out of Hard Bop, then it's just Blues... Originally Posted by stylo
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Hi Junpnblues, Originally Posted by jumpnblues
I teach Jazz Guitar Lessons as well as Workshops over Zoom. Let me know if you are interested and I can cater something to suit your needs.
Workshops
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Hi Emanresu Originally Posted by emanresu
I teach Jazz Guitar Lessons as well as Workshops over Zoom. Let me know if you are interested and I can cater something to suit your needs.
Workshops
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Some of it is terminology. Once I can hear it and find it on the guitar, it stops being theory. Or something like that. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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You'll hear lots of different things, obviously.
Maybe you'll hear one perspective that happens to click for you, so with that hope here is my take.
By the way I'm trying to get into more bluegrass now. I can hang at a jam playing jazz standards, but I can barely survive one fiddle tune! If you can play bluegrass and blues you are off to a great start.
Personally, I would say "jazz playing and learning theory" are two entirely separate things. If you can play by ear, you can play jazz by ear.
To me, chords are the trickiest thing to hear. Like 5 or 6 notes at once, and really dense harmonies, that's hard. So try using something like this:
This is a great transcription (with TAB) of a relatively easy chord melody by the master himself, Wes Montgomery. To be clear, this is still learning by ear, just cheating off the TAB when the sound/grip of a new chord might be just out of reach.
There's a weird thing where people treat jazz like it's NOT music. Like you can't just sit down with a recording you like and learn to play along to it.
There are only really three places on the neck to play each chord, that's because each chord is fundamentally a triad, made up of only 3 notes. As some others have said here, all the extensions and extra stuff is not necessary, and not helpful at first. I guarantee you Wes Montgomery and many other greats did not know the names to the chords they played. (My teacher, who attended Berklee in the 70s, told me a story about a lesson with Lenny Breau where Breau could not name the chords he was playing.)
This Herb Ellis lesson video is the best way of looking at chords on guitar that I have ever found.
The main "technical" thing I would do is kind memorize the "white notes" on the A string (C major scale notes). It's like a phone number: 2 3 5 7 8 10 12. Then you can play any chord with root on E string or A string.
Every chord is either Maj(7), Min(7), or Dom(7). Ignore the other stuff and play through tunes using those shapes.
It can be overwhelming when you get on the internet. Nobody 60 years ago when jazz was (in my opinion) at a peak was worried about all this internet stuff. That was invented to sell to people in universities. It's fundamentally a folk music like the other genres you play. There was also some very exciting composition happening after about 1960 (Giant Steps, Wayne Shorter, Joe Henderson, etc.). That stuff is hard for all of us to play. That's a whole different kind of problem solving, and not where anyone should start.
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Epiphany!!! I had a great practice session yesterday. Things are starting to come together. From the 17+ jazz chords I learned, I was able to put together the necessary chords for a decent, believable, version of "Autumn Leaves" in G. What a great feeling?!! I'm off and running. No bass lines yet. However, I've "assembled" not only "Autumn Leaves" but "Satin Doll" and "How Great Thou Art." I've also been working on "Lil Darlin" and "Avalon." Using my ears I've been able to hear individual tones of chords, construct or modify them, and apply those tones to the chords and song.
I still feel awkward in my novice like musical descriptions but, as times goes on and as I learn more, that will correct itself. I've gone from frustrated and discouraged to really excited about my progress. I'm using the version of learning the fretboard that stylo posted (Thank you, stylo). I'm trying to pay attention to the names of the chords I'm playing and progressions.
My ears have helped me much more than I realized they would. Good ears are especially useful in determining what chords and lead lines "fit," what sounds right, and what doesn't. I'm also working on arpeggios and will soon start working on scales.
I'm also working on improvising and playing over chord changes. I find improvising easier than learning chord melody and perhaps even a little more fun. With improvisation I hear lead lines and phrasing in my head, sing them, and find it on the guitar. I've done that with bluegrass music for the last 12 years. Again, my ears help with that. But I really love any aspect of playing jazz.
Anyway, just thought I'd share my excitement. I'm actually playing jazz! Something I've wanted to learn to do since I was a teen many decades ago. Well, gotta go practice. Will be back later.
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Charles Lloyd:
“What keeps me younger than springtime is that I’m still learning, I’m still growing. I’ve got experience, but I’ve got a beginner’s mind, and that’s a blessing.”
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Good advice. Originally Posted by rlrhett
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This state of affairs can be so true for many of us who opted for a career outside music and then moved on with our lives, especially as we get older and moving toward retirement. In my experience so far, we seem to isolate as we get older, not hanging out with friends to jam with as we may have when we were much younger and single. Originally Posted by rlrhett
Your comment about most jazz education seeming to be preparing the player to play with other musicians seems to match my observation too, and I am glad to read another person here saying this.
I would recommend to the OP to consider Robert Conti's chord melody materials in particular because these will set you up to be making your own arrangements right away. When you start with Chord Melody Assembly Line, you will quickly develop a vocabulary of chords that allow you to harmonize any melody note with major chords, minor chords, dominant chords, diminished chords, and augmented chords. These are all movable chord forms, so you learn the forms and move them around as needed. None of these chords involves large stretches or gymnastics, so they are easy to play and move from one to another and they don't sacrifice sophistication.
So once you finished that book and DVD, you can open a fakebook to any tune and voice chords under any melody note.
Next, after doing that for a while, you move on to "The Formula", a book and two DVDs. Here, you learn how to use different chords under the melody each time you play it, so you never have to play it the same way twice. This is when you start moving toward being able to spontaneously arrange as rlrhett alludes to.
However, the way Conti presents the material, you are moving from one block chord to the next and harmonizing every melody note with a chord. The reason for this is that he is eliminating everything so you can focus on learning to put a chord under a melody note and then being able to put any chord under a melody note.
It will then be up to you to explore ways of breaking up the chords to add texture and that sort of thing. This is where rlrhett's advice: "Learn solo arrangements of the tunes you like note for note." can get into your hands ways of doing this. By the time you start doing this, you have solidly in your hands a decent chord vocabulary and how to use it, so now you are focusing on how to add movement and get away from the block chord under every melody note idea.
Later, you might be interested in Conti's book on Intros, Endings, and Turn-arounds if you want to add these to your arrangements. Here is the link to this series of book/DVDs:
Source Code DVD Series Archives • RobertConti.com
The thing is, that taking this route, you are playing tunes all through the learning process and you only need to learn just a couple of somebody else's arrangement by rote to get the feel for making the tunes flow by breaking up chords and such. My problem is that I just don't have enough interest in learning somebody else's arrangement by rote and then becoming a sort of jukebox repeating somebody else's work verbatim every time I play. So for me, what I am suggesting is one way to avoid that as much as possible. I am not criticizing rlrhett's post at all, since it is excellent advice all the way through. Instead, I am adding my own ideas and suggesting a slightly different path that is based on my own way of doing things. We all find our own path eventually.
Some other ideas that are equally good and come from other directions:
- https://barrygreenevideolessons.vhx.tv/ (Barry Greene has lots of great video lessons teaching chord melody)
- DVDs/downloadable guitar lessons (Jake is all about chord melody and has downloadable video lessons)
Btween all the suggestions in this thread, the OP has lots to keep him busy for life.
Tony
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Jazz beginners/novices II-V-I Progressions Originally Posted by jumpnblues
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Since you are already a player, just learn songs. Pick up some jazz rhythms from some of Frank Vignola's Trufire courses and learn where the 9ths, 11ths, 13ths and dims are used. You would be surprised how great triads sound as substitions for these chords.. For chord melody stuff, you cannot beat Frank Vignola's Jazz Channel. The best $10 a month you can spend. It is like having a personal instructor. He answers student questions within 24 hrs. Often, he provides a personal video on the topic specifically addressing your question. Jim
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