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I’ve never played jazz with a group (probably not good enough yet) but I’m curious about what you need to talk about before kicking off a tune (and how this changes based on the instruments in the group). Let’s say you’re playing rhythm changes. I assume you need to talk about whether you’re playing G7 or Gm7 in bar 1, Bb or Dm7 in bar 3, Ab7 or Edim7 in bar 6, etc? But what about whether you’re gonna play G7#9 or G7b9 for the second chord, is that just something you can wing?
Feel free to write out a sample dialogue for what a group of pros might say to each other, I’d be interested to read it!
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06-05-2022 04:02 PM
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It depends on the players, and what your trying to do. If it's just playing through Real Book changes, people who know the tune will play what they've already memorized (which may or may not be exactly what's written in the chart). If they're reading they will tend to play what's written in ways they are familiar with that they like and think sound good. If they're not familiar with the tune, then they likely stick to the basics of what's written (this is assuming everyone is reading off the same lead sheets).
If you have multiple chordal players, if they're experienced they will adjust what they're doing so it sounds good and they're complementing each other rather than just muddying things up. If they're not experienced, then what works and doesn't will be obvious once you're all playing the tune and conflicting chords, etc. will have to be worked out.
If you're trying to do something different or new based on some standard, then it helps for someone to have an idea of what direction they want to go in and what that could sound like. Then the individual players have may have ideas and suggestions that could be tried.
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We mainly just listen and it just evolves.
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Yea I'm a pro and that's basically 50% to 60% of my gigs... even now, I have 4 gigs this week, 2 of them are with band that I was sub and now a member.... but we never rehearse.
Form and the style , intro and outro and if there should be an interlude or vamp that can be played on cue etc.
Harmonically... most of us can easily heard the style of harmony and feels.
I'm an arranger/composer and have directed BB and combos for ever, I verbally give cues, like 4 3 2 1.
Most can pickup on style of Harmony... by Chord Patterns.
An example.... at gig St Thomas was called and I changed the I VI II V to Imaj7 to V-7 and adjusted the melody and counter melody etc...
Or last week Wave was called and I changed the head and form before.... Made the 1st two "A" sections half time... each bar was twice as long and then back the normal time for the "B" section and last "A"... and solos were regular time.... after interlude vamp played regular until last "A" section and went back to half time vamped last 4 bars and Fermata on A7altered , cut and two more on the II and V..... cut
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Yeah it really depends. I’m a professional musician and this how it works for me.
Originally Posted by IanW
In situations where you are playing well known standards by memory, such as at an informal play or jam, this may never come up - unless someone has a favoured set of changes or whatever, in which case they might talk it through or provide a chart.
things like rhythm changes and blues have many variations, some of which are basically compatible and some of which are less so. In these cases you kind of need to use your ears; so whether it’s an Ebm, Eb7 or a Eo7 in bar 6 of a Bb blues, that sort of thing (or if you are feeling more adventurous a sub works with the melody). This is generally much more important for the head than the solos, which can be a bit freer. If you know the specific head you will already know this, of course.
(Needless to say anyone who plays G7 in bar 1 of a Bb rhythm changes is objectively wrong, but this is a side issue.)
But amateurs generally play from the real book or whatever.
When it comes to preparing music for working bands, I think it’s good practice to have a chart even for standards. It’s good to have a pad for each player.
In this case a well prepared chart will provide the necessary info on the arrangements and blowing changes for solos. It just makes everything nice and clear. A bonus is that prepared pads of this type should be sight readable by competent sub musicians, without rehearsal if absolutely necessary, if the music isn’t too difficult.
Re chord extensions - it depends on context. If I am playing super non functional type changes I may be very specific about 7#9’s and 13b9’s and whatnot but I would expect them to be in the chart. That type of music you often have to play the exact extensions. OTOH if it’s a standard depending on how arranged the thing is I will be much looser based on my knowledge of the tune and my ears, and especially open in the solos.
In terms of discussing soloing options etc - it does come up for unusual changes sometimes, but mostly theory of this type isn’t discussed much at all. If a piece required an unusual voicing or mode or something I would write it out in notation on the chart. Otherwise in general I can assume people know what they are doing.
EDIT: someone mentioned other chordal instruments and you do have to find a way of working with them. In general on most of my gigs I’m the only one booked to comp, or it’s a guitar duo and one of us comping at a time. Not sure why, that’s just the way it’s panned out atm. If there’s a piano comping I’ll often lay out entirely, play straight fours if that’s the vibe or play simple riffs things. Some pianists divvy it up, others like to be in control lol.
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Yea Christian makes good points as usual... And OP is a beginner LOL, anyway, beginners usually don't play gigs so you can generally play anyway you choose.... you can start and restart as much as you need.
The count off is for setting the tempo... And if your going to use a G7 for 1st chord if rhythm changes....
If your in Bb.... play D-7b5 to G7alterd or G7#9 which would would be common subs for Bb... You would be playing
III-7b5 toVI7alt then the II-7 V7
So / D-7b5 G7#9 / C-7 F7 / which typically would be the 3rd and 4th bar... But why not, It's been done many times.
I tend to try and educate young or beginners players at gigs. I've hosted lots of Jams and would use lots of verbal cues.... try and help keep the form right.
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Well I assumed he was curious about working practice.
Re RC, I meant people who play
| Bb G7 | Cm7 F7 | Dm7 G7 etc
instead of the correct vanilla changes which are
| Bb Gm7 | Cm7 F7 | Dm7 G7 etc
The former is VERY BAD and anyone who plays it is instantly reported to the bop police on my special hotline.
While I am of course kidding, I do enjoy the clearer harmonic shape that saving the G7 for bar three creates. If you haven't tried it it's an excellent way to cultivate a more authentic bop sound if that's what you are going for. Barry Harris was always adamant that Parker never played G7 in bar 1 on record, and I believe him (that is, I've not yet found a counterexample.)
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People getting together and playing something like this for the first time, or close to it, might very well choose to discuss what changes to play.
And, might choose to try it one way in one chorus and some other way in subsequent choruses. This helps get the different sounds in your ears, by sound and by name.
But, in a more advanced jam or gig, for a guitarist, the first issue is whether there's another chordal instrument.
If there isn't, than the guitar has a lot of freedom to experiment. But there are limits. You don't want to conflict with the melody during the head or confuse the soloist or bassist. Maybe you could say it this way -- you get to embellish the harmony, but you don't get to reharmonize the tune unless you're sure it's going to work.
When there's a piano, what usually ends up happening is that one of the chord instruments leads the way and that's often the pianist. It should be the best player, but sometimes it's the most stubborn player.
In that case you use your ears to figure out what the pianist is doing. That can be challenging if your ear isn't well enough developed. You may find that you can hear when something is wrong even if you don't know what it is. In that case, you revert to playing very simply.
Of course, there's no guarantee that the pianist is going to make the same alteration on the next chorus. In that case, even if you can figure out what he's doing, you may be too late. You muddle through.
But, to answer your question, in jams on well known standards, I haven't heard a discussion in years. A participant is expected to be able to hear it.
In working up a new tune or an original, there may be a fair amount of discussion. A lot of the time, in my world, it's commentary about the way the chart was prepared, clarifying the road map, pointing out tricky things that even good readers are likely to miss, agreeing on the groove and so forth.
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I did say use D-7b5 to G7alt.... so you could still have your authentic and correct changes on bar 3.
You don't actually just play vanilla over and over...right. I kinda thought there was some Blues in bepop.
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In bar 3 can I play Dm7 Dbdim7 ? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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It is permitted Originally Posted by garybaldy
or Dm7 Dbm7 if you are feeling cheeky
Theres millions of variants of rhythm changes; what I take from the G7 thing is that it’s good to make the turnarounds have some variety to give shape to the tune (unless you are playing super riffy swing.)
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Ok so bebop means different things to say Barry Harris and Paul Motian. If we are talking about the way Bird played music as ‘bebop’ then this does seem to follow. Originally Posted by Reg
Blues for sure, but G7alt is IMO the wrong way of talking about this - if I play a Bb on a pianist’s G7 someone transcribing might well write down G7#9 of course, which you could generalise to G7alt, esp if the piano plays G7b9 there.
But that doesn’t mean either person is actually thinking G7alt scale/harmony, one of us is playing diatonically in Bb and the other person is playing a secondary dominant and this is the kind of stuff that happens all the time when people don’t discuss specific changes (to get back vaguely to the the OP). Which I think adds texture, dirt and maybe a bit of blues. Summarising both the soloist and composers harmonic choice into one chord symbol is not appropriate in these cases imo. Anyway…
Ignoring the specifics of the underlying chords (which is generally a good idea for bop analyses for a few reasons), melodically the idea is you reserve the note B until bar 3.
If you look at Bird and Bud at least, they tend to treat bar 1 as pretty diatonic to Bb major. Quite often bar 2 is diatonic to Bb too; although the Gb often pops up here. It seems to me creates more of a four bar harmonic phrase which allows the lines to breath more, where as if you play G7 in bar one things can get a little more choppy.
It was a facet of those guys style.
(This may not jump out if you’ve just been transplanting bird licks on ii V’s for instance, the way a lot of people study bop.)
Barry said that in Bird’s early years he wouldn’t play the G7 in bar 3 either.
A quick squint at the Omnibook seems to confirm this. For instance Kim no 2, each time Bird plays the first bar of the A section his lines are based on the Bb major scale. Aebersold reflects these choices in his chord symbols as he does throughout in the book. Quite honestly it seems a moot point what the piano is laying down, Bird is such a force. I mean - who cares?
Jazz evolved of course. The way to play blues shifted too. Even those who copied Bird (ie everyone) copied it a little bit wrong and had their own take… even Barry. And of course these days people use all kind of harmonic options.
That said, Trane liked to play very diatonic/modal in the RC A section, I notice.
Again you can justify a lot of stuff harmonically esp on a tune like RC, and it can all be cool when it’s heard, but what’s interesting is as often what choices players don’t make as the ones they do and what that musically brings to the table.Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-06-2022 at 08:20 AM.
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Tl;dr Bird played rhythm changes as a song; people often play it as a bunch of turnarounds.
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We can only hope to aspire to your level of perfection...
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Back to the OP, sometimes nothing, sometimes quite a bit. If you work with the same people a lot, you end up talking about stuff, for sure.
Big thing to remember is in a full group, you don't NEED to be playing all the time. If there's a piano, let them dictate the harmony (because they're going to anyway)
With a form like RC, even though the chords can be different, the form is always the same, and many plans of attack regarding improvising on it don't change. I and V haven't gone away...
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- Assuming you're talking about a jam session (as opposed to more formal arrangements for a performance) ... For Rhythm Changes specifically, one generally calls a particular tune (I Got Rhythm, Oleo, Anthropology, etc.), which will establish the changes (as opposed to just calling a set of changes without a head). Originally Posted by IanW
- As far as extensions, alterations, and subs go, that's generally not discussed beforehand, unless someone has something very specific in mind under the head.
- There are certain tunes where there are distinct variants on changes or arrangements, and people generally discuss that up front (e.g., "only play the coda last time through to end the tune"; "on Felicidade, the head is AABC; solo over AAB; ending is just the C section").
- On a blues people will discuss which variant (e.g., blues blues vs jazz blues). People also discuss key, rhythmic feel, and tempo. Often on a ballad with a long form people will discuss whether to play full or partial choruses of solos (I'll play the first 2 A's, you play the bridge and the last A; singer comes back with the bridge after that)
- instrumentation can affect arrangement. E.g., horns generally play heads (and singers, obviously, sing the head); if you have multiple horns on, say, A Train, you might do the shout chorus, otherwise not. If you have multiple chord instruments (say, keys, guitar, vibes), ideally you take turns comping, though good luck getting a piano player to shut up.Last edited by John A.; 06-06-2022 at 02:26 PM.
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Listen to the first 20 sec's of the video. Wes is talking about playing with the latin feel for the first 16 bars then swing ("4/4 slang") and then back to latin. This is how this tune is usually played but I am slightly confused about this one because Wes just started with the B section and they played BA and the coda (as opposed to the AABA + Coda). I have played shortened version of tunes before, especially ballads but that's usually discussed with the band beforehand but then it's obvious what he is doing if you know the tune.
Last edited by Tal_175; 06-07-2022 at 03:49 PM.
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^ Ok I listened to it again. They are actually playing the changes in full form during Wes's solo. Only the head is shortened. The instructions make more sense now.
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Wow! Sounds really complicated!!!! I've played solo CG since the early 90's but the last ensemble I jobbed with(70's/80's) was Saxophone(me), piano, bass, and drums. The majority of songs were Jazz/R&B standards we knew by rote but if we introduced new material, we would work from simple lead sheets. Usually, not much was discussed unless there were some nuances(tempo/rhythmic/modulations, etc.) that we wanted to introduce in the piece. However, for the record, I don't remember much conversation(other than occasional glances) since we all played off each other's performance. Interestingly, for me. . . based on the above replies, things are more technical/scientific today and, for me, it kills the magic. What a difference a day makes . . .
Marinero
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When bringing music to a session, I'll have proper, printed charts, and possibly a recording of the tunes if available (or I may play it on guitar or piano otherwise, or sing it). Wrong or poor charts are almost worse than no charts, and I've been in situations where everyone's time was wasted because of it, so I pay attention to that.
Chord details work themselves out by listening and playing, but I might explain beforehand if there's something tricky. But mostly directions will be stylistic, meaning suggesting to players what you more or less expect the tune to sound like..
This last thing can be more complicated than one would think, especially for instruments you don't play, so eventually you learn a bit about drums, horns, piano, etc, and how they support common styles of jazz. Or you might use a player, group or album example to make a point..
But in jazz, real rehearsal kind of starts where all that ends, and the group just plays and listens to each other. With some bands we manage to have a weekly session, with others we practically never rehearse..
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Hey M
If it makes you feel better I’ve sat in with a blues band and the only thing discussed was the bass player sometimes saying the key to me and the Sax player. Up to me to hear if it was major or minor. Really fun night.
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"who pay the beers"
(joke)
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Just relaying stuff I learned no reason to be grumpy. Originally Posted by Reg
It’s a cool subtlety about the original bop players I personally would never have noticed in a million years if Barry hadn’t pointed it out. He was full of stuff like this he’d just casually drop.Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-07-2022 at 03:50 PM.
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And, otoh, there's this.
I play regularly with an excellent pianist with a degree in music. He likes to talk through a chart if there's anybody in the group who isn't familiar with it. And, sometimes, if everybody is familiar with it.
A lot of this is roadmap, but he'll cover anything that strikes him as prone to error.
His belief is that it's better to talk things over in advance than to make errors while you're playing the tune. Hard to argue with, right?
But, one time, with an absolute top pro drummer who can read anything, the pianist was doing this on every tune with the drummer clearly showing impatience. Eventually the drummer said, "Let's just play it and make it sound good".
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Yea... I might know that man. I tend to take it for granted that we're all good players and can play a tune anyway we feel like on the spot with out too much being said. I also notice that many guitarist spend too much time staring at their fretboard... at it can be tough to make cues or changes in live time. LOL
I mean part of the enjoyment of playing is being on he edge....not knowing where tunes might be going.
I guess I'm just too loose.
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