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ahhh...
Originally Posted by ragman1
a journey without a destination--
you would have to ask someone that has arrived
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09-08-2020 03:31 PM
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Hey Lionel sax...
I'm going to skip the BS. You have almost no time. It's difficult to even hear or feel your pulse.
You need to develop a pulse.... Generally with jazz start with simple 2 or 4 bar vamps.... If you like Blues, (who doesn't)
Work on I7 to IV7... Bb7 to Eb7. Simple 2 bars. Sometimes players start with a 4 bar pattern....2 bars of Bb7 and 2 bars of Eb7.
From that point.... develop a pulse. Start with 1/4 notes, 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4 etc. then turn that into slower pulse by feeling half note pulse. 1 x 3 x, 1 x 3 x. which becomes 1 x 3 x , 2 x 3 x or just counting or feeling by the bar,
1 x x x , 2 x x x , 1 x x x , 2 x x x , which is feeling by the bar with internal sub-dividions. Which is just feeling 2 bar phrases, with 1st bar being the strong bar and the 2nd bar becoming the weak bar. (now your feeling two bar phrases).
There are many other breakdowns of how to count, feel or organize.... time or space. But that's the point, your organizing how you count or feel time using rhythmic pulse with sub-divisions.
Your creating the perception of Time... with the use of organized Repetition.
You use patterns that repeat or create the perception of repeat.... which create, or at least the perception of "TIME".
And in the mean time.... you'll develop your internal Pulse....and with the use of sub-dividing, the tempo can be whatever you want.
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I am sorry if you can't feel the pulse. Originally Posted by Reg
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OK, who hacked Reg's account? He's usually a bit more supportive. Originally Posted by Reg
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I don't think people realise that if there were literal musical perfection it just wouldn't be attractive. That's why nature doesn't do straight lines :-) Originally Posted by wolflen
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Yea... sorry Lionelsax
I guess I should have gone through the BS. You sound good, it's a difficult journey getting Time together.
But I thought you were looking for what was wrong with your playing, the time thing. It's not really that difficult... but you do need to have the basics of performing in time. What it is and where it starts from.
Your not alone... most musicians are time followers, meaning they have good time as long as long as someone is creating a pulse, feel and shape, the Form of whatever your playing.
Metronomes are great, drum tracts are even better. Drum Genius is a phone app. that has lots of styles and examples of Styles or genres with lists of sub-categories with names and you can adjust the tempos.
Anyway... good luck.
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I haven't read the whole thread, but the OP's first question was whether he was skipping a beat or two, which he wasn't in the 2 minutes I heard.
Time or pulse is a whole different thing, and I actually have no idea how or if that can be "learned".
My daughter occasionally picks up a guitar to play a simple tune but when she does, each note is in exactly the right place; it's innate. On the other hand, a friend of mine stays in time as long as I'm laying it down for him. When I stop, he will stray after a couple of measures.
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Thanks a lot but I've got a very nice tool. It's a metronome on two and four. Originally Posted by Reg
I will post something else soon. On the second video I had the metronome in my ear. You can see the light. It wasn't loud enough so I got lost very quickly.
I think the problem came from there and from other things sure.
If I managed everything everyone would know who I am. Stupid thought... unknown musicians are sometimes better than the greatest.
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To improve your time, try some more challenging exercises with that metronome instead of letting it pull you along. E.g., set it to beat once per measure. Try playing with that beat as the one, the again as the two, then three, then four. Now set it to beat once per two measures and do the same thing. Try that while comping, then while playing simple melodies, then while soloing with the more complex rhythms that were throwing your time off. If you lose lock, slow down or simplify what your are playing until you can nail it. Originally Posted by Lionelsax
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Buddy Miles told Derek Sherinian:
“Mortimer, you gotta listen to the trains. There’s a train in every song.”
At 01:18 on this video:
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Lionel -
If you're still there...
Reg hasn't said anything that others haven't said already - mainly because it's just common sense. Some people can do math but not words, some people can sing in tune and some can't, and some people can keep time and some can't. Various exercises might improve it a bit but unless the essential ability is there, I don't know.
This isn't a helpful exercise, it's just a short test... like going to the doctor :-)
Will you try it? Here's the chart for Autumn Leaves and a backing track. I've done the first chorus just as it's written on the chart. Can you do the second? I just want to see if you can place the notes correctly. It doesn't have to be from memory - read the chart, it doesn't matter.
This isn't supposed to embarrass you, it's just a test. If you find yourself lagging behind the beat, which you seem to do a lot, there must be reasons for it. Either you're bored with all this, or you're played out, or your hesitancy is because you can't think ahead in improvisation yet, or it just might be you. But since you do a lot of music all the time it might not be you.
See if you can do this. It doesn't have to be the first attempt. Any one will do.
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Sure I can but there is no interest the way it is played. It doesn't swing. I want the melody to swing even if they are just 4th notes. My problem is not this one. Mine is more about articulation I think. Not really the beat but the feeling I give to the notes by trying to emulate my saxophone playing. It is something I cannot manage yet. I barely manage it on saxophone. Originally Posted by ragman1
Lionel -
If you're still there...
Reg hasn't said anything that others haven't said already - mainly because it's just common sense. Some people can do math but not words, some people can sing in tune and some can't, and some people can keep time and some can't. Various exercises might improve it a bit but unless the essential ability is there, I don't know.
This isn't a helpful exercise, it's just a short test... like going to the doctor :-)
Will you try it? Here's the chart for Autumn Leaves and a backing track. I've done the first chorus just as it's written on the chart. Can you do the second? I just want to see if you can place the notes correctly. It doesn't have to be from memory - read the chart, it doesn't matter.
This isn't supposed to embarrass you, it's just a test. If you find yourself lagging behind the beat, which you seem to do a lot, there must be reasons for it. Either you're bored with all this, or you're played out, or your hesitancy is because you can't think ahead in improvisation yet, or it just might be you. But since you do a lot of music all the time it might not be you.
See if you can do this. It doesn't have to be the first attempt. Any one will do.
I play with a kind of feeling I can't explore properly because of a lack of technique.
I don't have the fingers, lack of practise.
Nothing to do with the beat.
Like if I weren't able to clap my hands because one misses the other one.
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One of my heroes! Man this guy was good. It's a shame he's gone. Originally Posted by ragman1
The transcription is bar by bar but Brecker isn't playing in time. Anybody care? No-o-o-o
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Contrary to popular belief.... pulse and timing can be developed.
Most just don't develop rhythmic skills with a musically organized approach. Using a metronome is not an approach, it's using a tool.
For almost all musicians, that internal sense of pulse and timing comes from,
1) learning rhythmic figures.
2) being able to recognizing them.
3) being able to perform them by yourself and in group contexts.
How you approach developing those skills.... has direct results. I'll skip the usual approach, over and over using or not using a metronome, just keep memorizing material over and over etc...
If you want to improve the process... you need to learn how to breakdown and recognize rhythmic figures and understand how they work in different musical contexts. It's the only way to improve your speed and accuracy performing.
(The breakdown part is through analysis of rhythmic figures). This is not my opinion.... I studied with professional drummers as a kid, players like Alan Dawson, his books. Ted Reed's "Syncopation". Peter Erskine's "Time Awareness. Even...Frank Malabe & Bob Weine's "Afro-Cuban", Duduka Da Fonseca and Bob Weine's "Brazilian rudiments" And all drummers have Bellson's Books.
Most of this info. can be picked up Free on line...or with a subscription to Scribd for a month, under $10. Most can also be viewed on Youtube etc...
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One can play AL melody and swing it, probably more with when notes are played than with how they are played.
But I won't try to convince anyone of that. In fact, where is this thread going ? Although I'm not too surprised ...
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Can't disagree with any of that. TBH I think almost anything Lionel practices here will help. As Reg says, using a metronome is not an approach. It is a TOOL. Right on!
@Starjasmin - started Konnakol lessons today. This is going to be a RIDE.
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You are probably right but I found one of the issue. Originally Posted by ragman1
Lionel -
If you're still there...
The big issue is my right hand, it doesn't float so I try to put only my pinky on the body, I used to put it like a rocker.
It's not the best thing I did in my life but I tried.
Box
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So Lionel.... your thinking that your timing difficulties are from... "technical issue".
Most problems with musicians, timing and just performing in general are from... Technical issues.
Technical issues, make playing and performing with speed and accuracy almost impossible.
But having and developing time and pulse are also just... technical issues. Just like how you place your hand and fingers are technical issues. You just need to become aware of the technical issues of Time and Pulse.
Just for the record... I've performed with incredible professional players.... who also have technical issues with time and pulse. Performing Live generally exposes some of these issues, but that's why most touring professional hire band or musical directors that have the time thing together. Generally.... drummers or rhythm section players know how to help set up "Time". Make attacks feel natural, have balance and symmetry.
The most common rhythmic tool to help create this effect.... is with the use of Repetition and Contrast to help create the sense or perception of Musical Form.
This reality or perception of Time with the use of Repetition and Contrast, makes use of "patterns" that repeat. Repetition create sense of natural "Time".
These are all technical issues of creating "Rhythm" or organized succession of strong and weak beats. And "Timing"... your ability to keep the beat, by yourself or in a group.
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Yes, this is my answer if you've got enough time, if you haven't... you won't understand. Originally Posted by Reg
Good luck if you watch and listen, and yes my problem is 75% technical.
I am more a musician than a guitarist, a mediocre musician and a bad guitarist.
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Thanks, well done. Most of your notes are timed correctly on the beat, right? That means you can do it. So it's not you. You're not one of those people who just hasn't got any sense of time! Thank god :-)
The problem comes when you improvise. Actually, you're not quite sure what you're doing, if you don't mind my saying so. There's a vague idea about playing some scales but you're not confident about what to play. That's going to throw out your timing because your mind can't keep up.
May I suggest something? You're doing it in Gm rather than Em. Em or Dm is easier on guitar. But if you prefer it, so be it. So try playing it simply using G harmonic minor for the minor sections and Bb major for the major sections. Don't forget to make the lines fit the chords. You can also put some bluesy sounds in, especially on the minor sections.
Don't be over-ambitious, keep it basic. Complicate it later, which isn't hard to do, but it's foolish to do the clever stuff if the simple stuff isn't understood first.
Here's one chorus in Gm ( not a preferred key). It's just those two scales, making them fit the chords. It's easier to make the notes fit the chords if you can hear them! There are no b9 or altered sounds yet.
And try to use the whole range of the guitar, not just the treble, if you can.
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Cool .... best of luck.
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And yes, you're right, I'm not sure, my left hand spends more times to correct wrong notes than playing. Originally Posted by ragman1
About playing modal on a tonal tune, it is not my thing, I used to do it years ago, it sounds flat (not in a musical meaning) and too commercial.
I want to play long phrases like in be bop, not few 8th notes then a long note each 2 or 4 measures.
I know what a structure is, maybe I want to run before learning walking but I'm able to walk yet.
As you understood, I'm making my first running steps, I don't want to stop even if I fall down.
And yes, you're absolutely right about the range !!!
I'm not used to playing chorus and head... I'm too bad.
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I think so :-) Originally Posted by Lionelsax
I also think the other problems - timing and hand positions, etc - would cure themselves if this was solved.
You have to be very sure of what you're doing before you can play continuous, or near-continuous, 8th-note bop lines. They don't always work on every song. I think, but I don't know, that it might be easier on a saxophone. I may be wrong but I regard that language on guitar as a specialised skill. It takes a lot of practice.
Personally, I've never been attracted to it, I don't feel it or hear it in my head. That's just the way it is although I certainly appreciate it when I hear it done well. But I've also seen instructional material from good professional players that says use short melodic phrases... so I suppose each to their own.
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I like this guy's playing. Real bop. I posted this album on You Tube :-)
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Ah ! You listened to Duet2, this is Duet1 : Box Originally Posted by ragman1
Your box clip.
My immediate reaction is it's too complicated. Slow down. Get the rhythm really clear and steady. Play simpler stuff. If you must do continuous 8ths, fine, but 16ths are probably a bit ambitious at this stage. To keep time needs fluency in what you're playing. Unless you're just playing something memorised, improvisation needs to be spontaneous. That's the test, if you like.
We have a saying: KISS. Keep it simple, stupid. It's not very polite but it's a good message.
When you can go round the simple stuff, then complicate it. Patience and perseverance!
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