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To address the problem of 'keeping them in mind' (repertoire maintenance) you can use a rotational system.
I got up to about 150 songs. In any given week I learned to play melody and chords by heart (by playing along to each one looped in iReal) of 5 new tunes and add them on to the 'practice' playlist. On day 1 of the cycle I also play through songs 1-5 in the playlist once each as a refresher. Day 2 songs 6-10, Day 3 songs 11-15 etc. Each run through the cycle takes a little longer as the playlist gets longer, but then some songs you realise they are already well ingrained and you can drop them. Some times I cycle the playlist backwards from the most recent 5 for a change. Just change the numbers to suit the time you have or your learning speed.
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09-02-2020 05:41 PM
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Haha I don't have time to do that (apart from the obvious tunes). I think the main thing (for me) is to keep learning them, so when you inevitably have to relearn the older tunes the process is more refined, optimised and practiced.
In the end... you get the point where you can wing tunes you've heard without necessarily practicing them...
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I seem to have forgotten most standards I learnt... (being non pro an dnon regularly gigging player)...
Eventually I came the point that in genral you just find your path/your way through any tune just because of the experience...
then there are some song that you really love 0 and you dig deeply into them...
Not long ago I saw an interview with Bill Frisell. Bill has a huge performing carreer that includes lots of gigs on standards of course and various tunes (remember those Paul Motian set of records)... and he has husge interest in American music... but he mentioned a few very popular standards and said that he played them many times but only now (during first weeks of pandemic) having time to sit at home with his guitar and dive into some of them he realized that he did not know them at all...
Modern mentality is to find an efficient (preferrably scientifically proved) strategy.... as one of my friends said: 'most people only buy and make photos today while waiting for scientists to make another discovery")))
Do not look for strategy (especially if you are an amateur - what for?) - it is not business...
do what you love (choose songs that you really connect with), navigate in this ocean (try more from time to time... listen, sight-read, pickup -- it is fun)...
Do not expect results in the future... all great things in music with us happen right now
and enjoy, enjoy and enjoy...
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I am repeatedly fall into the sin of too early jumping to the next standard, despite I know, that simply makes no sense to start learn a new one, before I really own the current one. But the current became a bit boring :-), also I stuck on a level with it, and it really takes me out my comfort zone to improve... the new one looks so exciting... :-)
So being an amateur, where it does not matter how many standards I know, this is a very bad habit, but I can not change it.
Bottom line: do not follow me :-), it is a real obstacle to improve.
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Remember that when you are learning tunes you are practicing learning tunes. I sometimes think that’s more important than how many tunes you actually know.
As Mike Moreno points out the average pro NYC player learns new tunes very quickly. I think that’s the ultimate thing to work on. Always be learning music.
However at the start you may need to spend more time pinning things down because you aren’t yet so confident at winging it by ear and experience.
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I sometimes wonder what you guys mean by "learning a tune". Learning the melody, and memorising it is simple enough, a few run throughs for most simple melodies, a few more for the more complicated ones. You'll probably forget it tomorrow, but a run through or two and its back.
Now comping for tunes can be easy or very difficult - if you just learn the chords and play it in one position it's probably no harder than learning / memorising the melody, but flying around the neck playing inversions, subs and passing chords / notes at will (ie improvising constantly) is not easy!
Single note improvising, again, can be easy, extremely difficult and everything in between. So what does "learning a tune " mean for you guys?
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
- Being able to go for adventurous paths, develop them and still be able to return to the main theme (most of the times )
- Being able to feel and hear where I'm in the form. Feeling (or knowing) is the most important, but being able to "locate" quickly by hearing is necessary for recovery from lapses (at least before the form returned to the top).
- Being able to comp using different rhythmic ideas and voicings so I'm able to interact with the soloist in the right moments and follow spontaneous artistic impulses.
- Being able to play a decent bass line over the changes.
- Having come up with general phrasing ideas that highlight unique or interesting corners of the tune.
I can learn the melody and the changes quickly for not so difficult tunes but it takes a lot more "working on the tune" and internalizing it for me to be able to know the tune well enough to start doing all the above. I learned and played over 40 tunes in various jam and small gig situations but I KNOW may be 8 at this point.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Then I spend some time working on the details, listening to other versions of the song and looking at variations in charts and deciding which of any I agree with for a specific version of the song.
With a Wayne tune or something I usually have to spend a bit more time checking out the changes.
That wasn’t what learning the tune was for me 20 years ago. for instance you really have to have learned (I think) a few hundred standards before you start to hear the most common chord patterns right away.
BUT - I would suggest anyone at any level gets a proper handle on the melody before proceeding. It was my weak spot for a long time... still is a bit.
Again the idea is not necessarily to learn the tune for ever and ever, but get to the point where I can remind myself of it quickly. The more tunes I learn the easier that gets. however for a beginner this is TOTALLY different so please don’t take this advice.
the only advice I have is - always be learning music. Trust the process.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Another indication of knowing a tune, IMO, is being able to solo over the tune unaccompanied without messing up the changes, adding, dropping beats or getting lost. I found out that if I cannot do these unaccompanied then I cannot do them accompanied either. It's not the bands job to let anybody know where they need to be. That doesn't mean not listening and paying attention to what others are doing.
Accompaniment by backing tracks are different. Because they are looped, you learn the landmarks that indicate the important moments of the form. Then it's easy to subconsciously rely on hearing those events. That's why being able to play well with backing tracks doesn't translate to playing with others.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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There is no single perfect way to do it, but learning at least the melody by ear is IMO absolutely essential.
Also essential for most of us is to then learn to play the tune (melody, chords, solo, etc) in at least one other key.
If you're not sure what to practice, maybe after a bit of a lay-off when life got in the way or you were just in maintenance mode, learn a tune.
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Okay, I will elaborate on my question a little. Let's say I have an hour a day for practice. Now it happens like this: I spend 40 minutes studying the standard. I take a part (for example, 8 bars), play for 10 minutes comping, then play over these eight bars a melody in different positions on the fretboard or in chord / melody mode - another 15 minutes; and play outlines for another 15 minutes. The rest of the time I spend studying solos (now it's Herb Ellis's book "Swing blues"). So "learning the melody" for me means spending at least a month with one jazz standard. What to do with the rest of the repertoire is not very clear to me. Maybe such a practice routine will make sense: to practice improvisation skills (practice outlines, integrate licks into my improvisation, etc.) based on the harmony of one (or two / three) standards, and periodically scroll another 20-30 in memory favorite songs?
What practice plan would you recommend? in conditions of lack of free time, I want to be focused on one thing, but then I have the feeling that I am missing something
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Originally Posted by Kmatuhin
To keep up on the solos I use backing-tracks I have created many that represent common type of changes found in those 80 or so songs. I will also focus on playing over common turnarounds (since an area of struggle was smooth \ fairly seamless transition from chorus to chorus).
This way of practice has worked for me; E.g. I'm jamming with friends and someone calls out a tune I haven't soloed over in years. For my solo I can wing-it since I have practiced, fairly recently, how to approach said-changes, turnarounds, and the solo is melodic since I know the melody well.
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What I think it should mean is this: you can play the melody and comp well in any key.
That's my idea of the ideal.
My reality is like that for simpler tunes, but not for more complex tunes. Here's some more detail.
For melody, I know the tune when I can sing or play the melody reasonably accurately without getting derailed, for example, by confusing the bridge with a similar bridge of some other tune. If I know a melody, like if I can sing it, I can play it in any key without having to think about it.
But, I can't do that reliably with chords for complicated tunes. So, for comping, the minimal level of knowing the tune is being able to comp in the key I learned it in and play changes that work, even if they're not perfect. The maximal level is being able to nail the changes in any key. And, for extra credit, be able to keep up with a kb player who plays his own version of the harmony, by recognizing it on the fly.
If I've gotten that far, I can improvise on it. Implicit in that is being able to feel or pre-hear the changes so that I'm soloing entirely by feel and not having to think about which scales or chords to use.
Getting to the "maximal" point has everything to do with a trained ear and a good musical memory. I believe that some people are more able to do this than others, but that everybody can improve to some degree.
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Originally Posted by Gabor
i also think it’s also cool to sweat the details as well
sometimes the best thing is changing the way you do things normally.
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Originally Posted by voxsss
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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I like Bill's advice (see 2:35)
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Originally Posted by alltunes
Last edited by Tal_175; 09-18-2020 at 09:02 AM.
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I'm a fan of learning a lot of tunes at a basic level AND taking a few every month and going really deep. The first prepares you for situations...once you learn ten tunes, the next ten go faster...you start to understand form and structure....after a while you can get through a tune in a few minutes, or right on the spot.
But obviously the goal is not to "get through" a tune, so you continue to go deep on tunes...one a week? One a month? whatever works for you. Really put those tunes through the paces, multiple keys, different approaches...and THOSE tunes will help you with the ones you learn quickly too.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I think you learn a tune the same way a non-musician learns it. We all can sing popular songs.
The musician, though, can play them too, not just sing the melody.
Playing melody is a basic skill. Can you play a line you hear in your mind? If not, you practice it, mostly by having the guitar in your hands a lot, but you can work on imitating anything you hear or can remember.
Playing the right chords is more challenging.
The players who know a thousand tunes aren't remember chord names. They know the tune the way anybody learns it, and they can hear the changes. Anybody can hear changes -- or they wouldn't be able to tell a wrong chord -- but everybody can do that.
The player who knows a thousand tunes can reconstruct the harmony from the sound in his/her head, on the fly, in any key.
I think you learn that one sound at a time. I think Conrad Cork wrote a book along those lines.
So, for example. You can probably tell when a blues moves to the IV chord.
You can probably tell the sound of E7 A7 D7 G7 C
You can probably hear Fmaj7 Gm7 Am7 D7.
Maybe you've got Fmaj7 F7 Bbmaj7 Bbm7
You'll need to be able to hear a chord going up a half step, or a minor 3rd.
You can probably recognize Dm Dminmaj Dm7 Dm6.
Fmaj F#dim7 Gm7 G#dim7
The list goes on, but the point is that there are commonly used progressions that you can learn by sound.
Then, there are some techniques that help you find the right chord on the fly.
For example, you don't always have to play chords, just because you're comping. You can play single notes, double stops, guide tones, or a quick improvised line.
So, to take an example, suppose somebody calls All of Me. You can hear the tune in your mind. Key of C, say. Hopefully,you can hear that it starts on a Cmaj. But what's the second chord? If you can play the melody (assuming you have that skill), you might realize that the melody starts with the notes of a C major triad. Where does it go next? If you can hear the melody, you may be able to recognize an Emaj triad. Or maybe you just hear that C go to a B. If you noodled a line on the C can you hear that the C drops to a B? If you play a couple of more notes in your noodled line, can you find another chord tone? If you have found 2 correct notes, you can play those. If you're lucky that day, you'll find the 3 and 7. Great comping? No. But no clams either. If you can hear or find the D going to C# (for the A7) then you may realize it's the usual E7 A7 thing. At that point, can you hear the upcoming V7 im to Dm? Can you noodle something and find it? The tune then does something a little less common. It goes from Dm to E7. You're going to hear that in the bass, if there is one. Can you recognize that you just played that sound?
Maybe a little too far into the weeds, but this is my idea of how to be able to learn and retain tunes.
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