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Of course it's not obvious why one would want to play an instrument they don't like listening to even when played by the masters.
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08-17-2020 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Once again for me it’s never been the tone. It’s always been the notes.
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
I also like Benson's use of octaves with a sixth in between.Last edited by bobby d; 08-19-2020 at 07:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
It's certainly not for me to judge, I'm just puzzled by a guitar player who likes jazz but wants to avoid listening to Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall, Kenny Burell, Ed Bickert et al. in their journey to learn the craft. (Again I don't know if that describes you, I'm referring to what I understood from OP).
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Originally Posted by christianm77
During his teens in the Deep Deuce (an area in Oklahoma City with a lot of clubs) he played a lot of blues as well as swing tunes. It is, I think, fair to say that while Joe Pass sought to avoid playing guitaristic things, everything Charlie did was guitaristic---the grips he used, the way he played out of shapes, the way he held his guitar at an angle (when sitting, and he tended to play sitting) so it would project more.
Before the electric guitar came along , there was no way for a soloist to be heard above a band with horns. Horn players were the default soloists because horns are loud and can be heard above piano and drums and acoustic bass.
The more I think about it, the more I think "horn-like" just means "single-note-soloing." Naturally that was the province of horn players back then. Charlie idolized Lester Young and was one the great soloists in jazz but I think absolutely nothing is gained, and something can be easily confused, if one CONTINUES to call Charlie's playing "horn-like." It was guitaristic through and through.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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" But my conclusion is to resist the temptation to "burrying in reverb" Gabor
This is an interesting point, G. Due to the nature of an electronic instrument, the player begins to believe that electronic manipulation is the only goal to one's personal sound. And, to a great extent-- it really is. However, for those who play acoustic guitars, especially Classical, there is a cornucopia of sounds that the player has at his disposal if he/she takes the time to develop the technique required for the instrument and discover the infinite sound possibilities inherent in the instrument. There are many electric guitar players that have perfected their electric sound that would, in my opinion, sound abysmal if played on an acoustic instrument without tone controls/amplification since so much is centered around attack, proper technique, and learning the tonal possibilities revealed during developing technique and exploration on a Classical guitar. And, despite the imagined protestations of many on this Forum, there is not a Jazz guitar that exists today that sounds, unamplified, as rich in tone as a quality Classical guitar. . . ergo, the need for amplification to create an electric, manipulated sound. Part of this is the tonewoods used and the other is the nature of the guitar strings that are so different from a Classical guitar.
Since I've ,seriously, returned to my original 1966 Gibson ES125 ,less than a year ago after a very long sleep, I have been trying to create an electric sound that approximates what my ears want to hear which is based on my natural/personal sound and requires long hours of experimentation with buttons and dials and has very little to do with my technique or ideas. And, although not excessive, reverb is a necessary evil to get the rounded tone so representative of a good acoustic instrument. So, it is, in my opinion, that a rich sound is definitely not the sole territory of very expensive hollow body archtop electric instruments since I have heard some remarkable sounds from Teles, Strats, and semi-acoustic guitars that have been remarkably tweaked, electronically, for sound.
Finally, I think there are some players, irrespective of skill level, whose main focus is blazing speed at the cost of personal sound and sadly, total musicianship suffers. To paraphrase Henry in a previous post, one's personal sound should be a number one goal for a musician since, like the human voice, it distinguishes us from others.
Here's Roland Dyens for an example of Jazz played on a Classical instrument. Play live! . . . Marinero
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The question is-why would you want to limit yourself? Listen to any music that you are fond of and don't limit your listening by the type of instrument.
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
My interpretation of OP that he/she is at an early stage in their development (hence the getting started section) but ruling out all the great guitar players due instrumental preferences. Maybe I misunderstand OP's reasons but that's what it sounded like to me.
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
A smidgeon of Reverb goes a long way.
I do admire players who go dry though. Esp with a bit of crunch. Krantz, Lage; brave players!
OTOH listening to the amplifier sound ‘on beam’ is always an unpleasant experience. Other musicians don’t seem to understand this lol.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
The thing that drives you to dive deeply into someone’s music - work out their lines and so on - is a mysterious and deeply beneficent impulse and following it will make you unique and individual, because we are all drawn to different stuff.
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Possible and probable are two different things. Yeah, it's possible. Others have already posted many examples of great jazz guitarists who cite non-guitarists as primary influences.
When I was in school, we guitarists were encouraged strongly to listen to and transcribe non-guitarist solos; that was great advice, and I did do that a lot. But as someone who was still learning the mechanics of playing technique and conceptualizing lines/style that were suited to execution on guitar, I got more out of transcribing Pat Martino, Wes and Larry Carlton than Bird, even though I listened to (and stole ideas from) everybody.
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I was just listening to an online concert and heard a guitarist I wasn't familiar with.
He had a classic jazz style. Meaning, he played a lot of very cool sounding lines, which I've heard other guitarists play.
My guess is that he has studied a lot of guitarists.
You occasionally hear a guitarist who doesn't play that way. Maybe those are the players who didn't listen to guitarists as much.
Hard to name them, but Charlie Christian leapt to mind -- you can hear him in Lester Young's recordings that Charlie could have heard. And, there wasn't much single note soloing on guitar on record back then, although I've read that Charlie had heard Django. I don't hear any similarity though.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by bobby d
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Here is a horn player playing chords
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Here is another horn player playing chords (go to 1:30):
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Well... horn players as you say cannot really play chords like on a guitar but they know how they are made, some guitarists (not a lot here I think) think about shapes, tabs...
This is why some say guitarists have to think like horn players (not in shapes and tricks).
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I think you could become a good jazz guitarist without listening to much jazz guitar. You could totally learn single-note soloing by just listening to sax players and working stuff out on the guitar based on their lines.
That assumes you already know how to play the guitar though of course.
When it comes to chords and comping, you would need to listen to guitarists otherwise you would end up doing things in a way that might piss off other people in a band. Understanding other people's expectations of your role as an accompanist would be tough unless you'd listened to examples of guitar comping.
If the OP means 'could you take jazz guitar lessons and learn from them, but not really listen to much jazz guitar?' then the answer is yes, sure. But in those jazz guitar lessons you would of course be listening to jazz guitar!
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I learned comping by listening to Red Garland.
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Can you become a good jazz guitar player without listening to guitar?
I don't know why you ask the question. Why would you not listen to guitar if you play guitar?
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Gabor
Apart from the obvious fact that you're not going to learn much about what's possible on a guitar by only listening to other instruments.
Transcriber wanted
Today, 04:35 PM in Improvisation