The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    So because I am terrible at keeping up with where I/other players are in the form, I was given an exercise by my teacher. The exercise is to set the metronome on 2&4 and play arpeggios through the tune. I find this really really hard, especially counting, while thinking about chord changes, and the arpeggio shape. I also try to do this while soloing through the form, which is a little easier, but I find that I easily get lost. So much to think about. I do find that it get's a little easier each day though, which I guess is because I start from the root of the first chord, so it becomes a memorable pattern. When I finally think it's easy/doable, I probably start from somewhere else, just to make it hard again.

    Before you suggest that I should listen to the song more.Just know that I am able to write out the whole form with chords, by memory. I am also able to hum the melody. I have worked with arpeggio/melody/chords on the song for over a month.

    So my question is, how do/did you practice keeping track of the form? One exercise my teacher also recommended me, was to listen to the song, while you had a conversation with someone. Instruct the other person to randomly ask you "what chord is this?". This forces you to think about other stuff, while also keeping track of form.


    Could it also be that using iRealPro is a dumb shortcut? I mean, when using iRealPro, you often look at the chords, so you keep track that way. When I do the exercise I iReal with just a metronome, and look elsewhere. I once in a while glance at the screen, just to confirm that I am keeping track.

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  3. #2

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    Is it possible to find a practice partner where you are? It's a good and fun way to stay aware of your form, and your progress through it.
    Remember that this is a listening ability as well as a kinesthetic (hand) ability as well as an awareness/feel ability. Practicing with another person can help you hone these abilities without hyperfocusing on either one. It takes time. Be patient.
    When you're practicing with your partner, alternate Melody, Chords, Bass lines. Arrange to trade off roles and break the piece up into choruses, then form segments (AABA) and then 4 and then 2 bar segments, all the time being aware of the tune you're playing. Yes, feel free to quote the tune while you're playing. Be aware of melodic fragments and developing them ie: work motifically. Use space and rhythm to organize your thought process. All these things can help you.
    Most of all, be patient. Get off book as soon as you can. Work with a partner.

    I'm sure there's a lot more others around here will help you with. These are just a few things I've found to be really helpful with me.

    David

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Is it possible to find a practice partner where you are? It's a good and fun way to stay aware of your form, and your progress through it.
    Remember that this is a listening ability as well as a kinesthetic (hand) ability as well as an awareness/feel ability. Practicing with another person can help you hone these abilities without hyperfocusing on either one. It takes time. Be patient.
    When you're practicing with your partner, alternate Melody, Chords, Bass lines. Arrange to trade off roles and break the piece up into choruses, then form segments (AABA) and then 4 and then 2 bar segments, all the time being aware of the tune you're playing. Yes, feel free to quote the tune while you're playing. Be aware of melodic fragments and developing them ie: work motifically. Use space and rhythm to organize your thought process. All these things can help you.
    Most of all, be patient. Get off book as soon as you can. Work with a partner.

    I'm sure there's a lot more others around here will help you with. These are just a few things I've found to be really helpful with me.

    David
    Good tips!

    I actually get together with friends and jam the current standard I am working on, like once a month. This is really a good exercise, cause you get shocked how different it is from being alone in a room.

  5. #4

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    I find that comping chords through the tune for as many choruses as I can stand (!) helps me lock down the form in my mind. In any case guitarists should probably practise comping just as much as soloing, it's often neglected yet we won't be playing solos for much of the time!

    When I first jammed with another jazz guitarist, I found it easier playing my solos than doing the comping. In the latter I kept losing the form at first. It was after that sobering experience that I decided to practise comping a lot more.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    Good tips!

    I actually get together with friends and jam the current standard I am working on, like once a month. This is really a good exercise, cause you get shocked how different it is from being alone in a room.
    And if you work with a like minded partner, it can be an extraordinary learning situation, not just jamming in the classic sense, but actually working on focused points you want to improve in your own playing. I have a friend who's a teacher and he has his students play Stella alternating improvisation and chordal comping every two bars. You start to think of comping melodically, and soloing chordally when you do this. When I'm doing duo work, it's always a goal to erase the boundries between soloing and comping. At its best, it's a trio: two players and the song form all on equal footing.
    Attitude is important. Good luck and have fun. It will come.

    David

  7. #6

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    A few practice ideas to internalize tune:

    1. Loop the melody from a source recording that you like.(I use the program Transcribe)
    Play against this whatever it is you are working on.

    2. Conversely, play the melody against all the solo choruses

    3. a little harder, with metronome or not, sing the melody while improvising

    4. with metronome or not, sing the root movement while improvising

  8. #7

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    What you want to achieve is internalizing the forms of tunes. To do this:

    1. Learn all heads by ear, not from sheet music. This means you have to listen a lot before you start trying to learn a tune.

    2. Try to learn chords by ear, but it can be hard and you'll want to look at sheet music to "check your work" - but get away from the sheet music as soon as possible, like within 1 day. 1 day! This will force you to get the form into your head.

    3. Don't rely on sheet music when playing tunes. Don't keep it on the music stand "just in case" unless it is a tune you actually don't know. If you do keep there "just in case", in 10 years you'll be asking the same questions you asked in this thread. If you're practicing and you want to apply an exercise over a tune and you are rusty on the changes, google the tune, spend 30 seconds reviewing a chart from google images, then close your computer/phone/ipad.

    4. Accept that it is hard at first but believe that it gets much easier over time IF YOU DO THIS PROPERLY AND ACTUALLY GET AWAY FROM SHEET MUSIC. Learning tunes and internalizing forms is like anything else - the more you do it, the easier it gets. And it gets MUCH EASIER the more of it you do.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    The exercise is to set the metronome on 2&4 and play arpeggios through the tune. I find this really really hard, especially counting, while thinking about chord changes, and the arpeggio shape.
    I think this is your answer. I find I can only work on one weakness at a time. Everything else needs to be simplified so I can focus on the skill I'm practicing. It seems like you are working on your pulse, fretboard knowledge and the song form all at the same time. I suggest that you eliminate other variables as much as possible. One weakness at a time, not too many moving parts.
    For example you can start by playing only the 3rds of each chord, whole notes through the chord changes of the tune. Than 3rds and 7ths half notes. Each chorus change octaves. Than quarter notes (all for notes of the arpeggios), than connecting them etc.

  10. #9

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    My teacher used to make me start a tune from a random bar, and then finish it...

    I hated it. It works, though.

  11. #10

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    I had a goal to play solos all by ear. Got some skills at this (nothing too spectacular, just became comfy playing inside key and change keys without much trouble only by ear) so I figured I didn't need to always play the guitar to learn the tunes. To test it out I used Giant Steps. Put the backing tracks (different kinds) on while driving to work and back. Sung a vocal impro... many many times. Dunno how many hours was the total play time. A lot for sure. Anyway, didn't practice with guitar that time, that piece. Once I felt it being easy enough to sing a solo and not get lost, I took the guitar. Played a rather clumsy solo at first but didn't get lost either. And didn't play any wrong notes Well, I already knew how to play by ear, so without it it'd not be the same.

    Anyway! From that experience I got the theory.. or.. jeez.. a notion.. something -> we supposed to learn to feel the tune first, so the memories of the chord changes are triggered BY THAT FEELING. Kinda sorta harmonic feeling. Not the other way round. The other(retarded) way would be memorizing the changes like we memorized the multiplication table. And play from that table, and hope it sticks.

    This "theory" got backed by other tunes I gave up playing before knowing how the changes feel. Before learning to sing an impro on those.

    I'm not gonna advertise this too much, just that it's worth to try learning this way. Check it out, might be useful.
    But I'm a hobbyist. So, 2 cents, not more.

  12. #11

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    Sing the lyrics in your head. You will NEVER get lost.

  13. #12

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    I'm not sure I understand the problem the OP is describing.

    Does he mean that he doesn't know where he is in the tune?

    Or is it more like he can't keep track of whether he's played the last A section and the first two A sections and it's time for the bridge? I find that it's easy to make that mistake if I'm not concentrating. The solution to that is to yell "TOP" (silently, in your mind) when you're at the top. It's also very helpful when the drummer anticipates the bridge.

    But, if you're at a random place in the tune and you lose track of where you are, that's an indication that you may not know the tune as well as you thought, or, you're struggling with so many other factors that you are distracted from the music you're trying to play. In either case, working more on the tune is the solution. Learn the lyric. Play along with Irealpro in 12 keys. Drop out the piano and play along with the bass line. Work on your chords, scales, arps or whatever devices you are using to make them more automatic, so you don't have to focus on them too much. Play with other people as often as you possibly can. Generally that makes people find a way to get better.

    Good luck!

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'm not sure I understand the problem the OP is describing.

    Does he mean that he doesn't know where he is in the tune?

    Or is it more like he can't keep track of whether he's played the last A section and the first two A sections and it's time for the bridge? I find that it's easy to make that mistake if I'm not concentrating. The solution to that is to yell "TOP" (silently, in your mind) when you're at the top. It's also very helpful when the drummer anticipates the bridge.

    But, if you're at a random place in the tune and you lose track of where you are, that's an indication that you may not know the tune as well as you thought, or, you're struggling with so many other factors that you are distracted from the music you're trying to play. In either case, working more on the tune is the solution. Learn the lyric. Play along with Irealpro in 12 keys. Drop out the piano and play along with the bass line. Work on your chords, scales, arps or whatever devices you are using to make them more automatic, so you don't have to focus on them too much. Play with other people as often as you possibly can. Generally that makes people find a way to get better.

    Good luck!
    The problem is that I loose track of where I exactly are in the form, especially when I use all my mind power on trying to play some notes to solo. For example, I played a solo while my teacher comped, and after a while I noticed I just started soloing on the form a second time. He put the metronome on 2&4 and he played a real good solo, and although I often heard were he were, I often also did in fact not.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken
    The problem is that I loose track of where I exactly are in the form, especially when I use all my mind power on trying to play some notes to solo. For example, I played a solo while my teacher comped, and after a while I noticed I just started soloing on the form a second time. He put the metronome on 2&4 and he played a real good solo, and although I often heard were he were, I often also did in fact not.
    When you solo, can you hear the chord changes in your own solo? I wonder if you're hearing the tune clearly in your mind as you try to solo. Or, if you have to concentrate so hard on figuring out which notes to play, that it distracts you from the music. If that's it, I'd suggest IRealPro and slow it down to the point where you have time to think. Make sure you can hear the notes which change from one chord to the next, aka guide tones.
    It may help to focus on just a tune or two while you get this together.

  16. #15

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    I don't know any other way except ears... jazz songs are simple forms - they are no symphonies...

    Form is not just chords... but mostly cadences and modulations, so called 'moments of form', points where something is reaching climaxe of changeing.

    Even if we speak about modal tunes - they have their own clauses and meaningful turnarounds.

    So basically it is important to relaxe one's hearing and try to catch general moments of form by ear

    If I ever advise.. I really do advise to avoide any cliches about form given in a book (like it's AABA..) because for example I often hear froma AABA - as actually AB (where A and B have the same beginning but different endings)...
    Form should not necessarily fit just one pattern, it can have features of a few different forms simultaneously - so it is not necessary to firmly describe it...

    As I said it is enough to define 'moments' of forms' - if there are a few climaxes - which are more important and which less. the cadences - which are more stable -and which not... the sections - which are repeated and how and why?
    Which sections are stable and which are modulating? How do they modualte?

    Often so called A section has stable harmony going around key mostly and only cadences are different character.
    And B section is unstable and modulating...

    But sometimes it is opposite... like Darn That Dream or Sophisticated Lady where Main section sounds more complex and unstable and the bridge is more sparse relaxed and stable harmony

    Besides regular changes it is helpful to iunvestigate and practice 'modulating' bridges constructions, how they are built up usually and just improvize them...

    One of the best thing is to improvize the form (this is what was the basis of classical improvization when it existed, they improvize a new piece using the tools to compose the form and texture)
    Mostly jazz players play over the given form, but try to improvize a new form yourself - considering how simple jazz forms are usually it should not be a big problem. You could try it just chords without melody for example...

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I don't know any other way except ears... jazz songs are simple forms - they are no symphonies...

    Form is not just chords... but mostly cadences and modulations, so called 'moments of form', points where something is reaching climaxe of changeing.
    Knowing the forest so you don't get lost in the trees. Really good advice.

    David

  18. #17

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    I've always had a hard time remembering tunes.

    A few things that help me are:

    1) Analyse the tune first for it's form. Is it A-A-B-A or another form? Blues? What is it. Right off the bat you see the general form. I differ from Jonah about this. I think seeing a general organization of the tune is helpful.

    2) Number the changes (see below). This makes transposing the tune much easier also.

    All The Things You Are - 6-2-5-1-4 2-5-1 etc. (use Roman numerals if you like)

    Ralph Patt's website has vanilla changes of most tunes: The Vanilla Book

    3) Learn the melody of course. Naturally you should listen to the tune being played.

    4) Get a lead sheet of the tune. Create a chord melody of the tune.

    5) Play each chord and then play the underlying arpeggio and/or scale in that position on the fretboard. See it on the fretboard.

    6) Practice the tune frequently; at least every other day.

    7) Transpose the tune to another key.

    So I guess there is no one way to memorize a tune. The more ways you understand a tune the more likely you are to remember it.

    Matt Warnock has an excellent article about analyzing ATUR: All The Things You Are - Chord/Melody, Analysis & Guitar Examples
    Last edited by Drumbler; 11-07-2018 at 08:33 AM.

  19. #18

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    Yea as you can see there are different approaches...

    So there are a few different aspects going on with knowing where you are in music... we're talking about jazz tunes, so with respect to Jonah.... Targets are extremely important .... but what are those targets.... they are locations in time.....

    Anyway....most end up memorizing melodies or changes.... some type of memorize approach. That's great, but what your memorizing is a specific tune, some aspect of the tune, the melody, changes, turnaround... those moments of climax or specific targets.... Even when you memorize Form.... 12 bar blues, 8 bar, 16 bar etc.... AB, ABA, AABA your still somewhat memorizing something.... but at least your beginning to make the list of what to memorize.... Smaller, much smaller. But your still coming up with a device that can still get shorter....that spatial thing TIME. ( just a personal not, I use and have always used... FORMS, I'm a composer, arranger and performer for way to many years, it works now and worked 50 years ago....

    Music fits into FORMs... even when a FORM is adjusted or modified... it has a FORM as a reference, where it starts from. With Jazz, 99% of the tunes are composed within FORMS. Even if your a memorize the melody or changes guy or gal.... it will be much easier and faster when you memorize within... a FORM.

    You can have levels of importance within that form .... later, after you have the form thing together.

    Before you can memorize and understand FORMs.... you need to understand how Time works. With jazz... we use rhythmical figures to create the perception of motion, even sustain.... there is always a sense of Repeat or cycle.
    A single musical element, or smaller musical elements are generally part of a Larger Musical Element.

    1 + 1 = 2 ...2 + 2 = 4 etc... the organization of musical elements.

    Your teach might be trying to teach you what a single musical element is... and how to connect them to create a simple pattern that repeats.... basic organized motion of TIME..... your metronome on 2 and 4 is the organization, the feel of each bar
    of time.

    You need to learn and internalize... patterns and feels of how TIME moves within space. Patterns create a sense of organized perception of motion.

    You start with... 1 1 1 1 1 ... a simple repeating pattern , then 1 2, 1 2 , 1 2 etc.... then you work with patterns within one bar, then Two bars.... Once your able to feel Two bars.... you have the skill to cover most music.... becomes 4 bars, then 8 etc...

    You can feel the organization of smaller durations of time within larger time frames. There are just not that many to get together. Some different styles and feels.... later you'll be able to get and feel odd times, more complex organization of time because you have the basics down.

    Anyway then your ready to begin memorizing melodies and changes... Tunes, because you actually have different Shapes and Structures of something as compared to... its materials, what is used within the Form.

  20. #19

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    Lots of good advice above, I'll echo a few things.
    Learn the melody REALLY WELL. be able to sing it and play it.
    Learn the basic changes REALLY WELL be able to hear them in your mind without your instrument.
    Learn to HEAR the song. Not just counting bars and reciting chord changes in your mind but really HEAR it.
    When you improvise on the tune, use the above learned things to allow you to play thru a song that you really hear.
    Counting and calculating and thinking too much will always be a problem especially if you have trouble concentrating etc.
    Its hard to learn this way but its worth it.

    all the best
    Tim

  21. #20

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    I think this is a really important question and is a more wide spread problem than many care to admit. I struggled with it and still do from time to time (even after +30 years of playing). Like all aspects of playing it needs continual working on. Some players struggle with it more than others, and if you already played (blues or rock) before launching into jazz it comes more easily.

    My views are that holding the melody in your head doesn't necessarily help. Bebop moved away from improvising around the melody, and you can't hear what you play and the melody at the same time ...at least not easily. Secondly, if you remove the sheet music you will be relying on what you hear and although that is preferable, not all of us have the luxury of regular gigs that ensures you learn all the tunes. The art to it is using the sheet music to bump the memory. You are sort of seeing it, but not really staring at it. So to the thorny question.

    A metronome helped me. Playing on 2 and 4 may help in establishing where the back beat is, but knowing where beat 1 falls is also important. Set a ping to beat 1 as it always lets you know where you are. Use a recording devise to lay down the chords four beats to a bar. That way the harmony and rhythm are in synch and will help keep you on course. First try very simply ideas ...just one or two notes, while paying attention to time or form. Then, practice easy licks, first with just a metronome then with a backing track, that start on beat 1 and either finish on beat 4 or beat 1 of the next bar. If you know know where notes fall in relation to the harmony, this guarantees you keep your place. The way to get that down is practice slowly with a metronome, gradually building up speed. Do this relentlessly! Don't try to improvise. That comes later when time becomes ingrained. You will start to feel 2 bars, then 4 bars and so on.

    The other thing that helps with time and form is playing melodies. They teach you rhythmic phrasing such as starting on the up beat, anticipating (playing ahead of) the next chord, space etc. The next step is to transcribe solos of great players. You'll discover that keeping form becomes so instinctual that players don't seem to think about it, which gives them the ultimate freedom to play what they want. That is the goal. They can start and end a phrase when and where they want. That comes from years of playing and exceptional ears, and although you should strive towards this, you can still play and enjoy it without reaching those giddy heights.

    Interestingly, if you listen to Joe Pass you'll notice he keeps the notes flowing ie not a lot of space. That is a useful technique to practice since it is sometimes spaces, especially irregular ones, that throws a sense of where you are. You'll sometimes hear him pause as he catches up with the form. Remember, he learnt from the bandstand and records so memory and the ear were developed at the outset. I don't know if that makes for a better player or not. I think it is different now.

    Just my tuppence worth.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by vsaumarez
    Interestingly, if you listen to Joe Pass you'll notice he keeps the notes flowing ie not a lot of space. That is a useful technique to practice since it is sometimes spaces, especially irregular ones, that throws a sense of where you are. You'll sometimes hear him pause as he catches up with the form. Remember, he learnt from the bandstand and records so memory and the ear were developed at the outset. I don't know if that makes for a better player or not. I think it is different now.

    Just my tuppence worth.
    He sounds to me like he is just hearing changes that are there now and coming not... not the form really.

    (Many jazz players sound like this - especially old school, nothing wrong about it)

  23. #22

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    I saw a lesson somewhere once, where the teacher recommended going through the tune playing each chord once on the beat.



    seemed a useful excercise. might try it tonight actually

  24. #23

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    When a musician says that they cannot know where they are in the song while playing it, I have to think:

    Hiccups!
    They're playing alone and lost their place because they stumbled,
    They fell off their stool,
    They're not quickly switching between chords,
    They have personal issues, under pressure or they daydream,
    They need new glasses or an hearing aid,
    They're watching the hockey game,
    The drummer keeps swatting flies with his brushes,
    The bassist is poking him with his bow,
    He's being electrocuted by a short in his pedalboard,
    The sister of the bride dancing the time warp by herself in front of the bandstand is busting buttons,
    The police just burst in,
    LSD flash-backs,
    They're following a poorly constructed backing track from the internetz,
    The drummer is not cuing the bars,
    The bassist is not leading into the chords,
    The bassist is soloing,
    The bassist and drummer have eloped,
    The song has four extra bars and one bar has two beats...WTF?,
    The entire rhythm section is drunk or relatives of the singer... probably relatives of the singer,
    The rhythm guitarist is banging on full six string barre chords,
    The piano is very badly out of tune,
    They're playing in 11/32 meter,
    There's so many altered dominant seventh chords and tritone subs that they can't find the tonic,
    They're stuck in a time warp... again.
    ...
    Last edited by StringNavigator; 06-16-2021 at 06:05 PM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by TLerch
    Lots of good advice above, I'll echo a few things.
    Learn the melody REALLY WELL. be able to sing it and play it.
    Learn the basic changes REALLY WELL be able to hear them in your mind without your instrument.
    Learn to HEAR the song. Not just counting bars and reciting chord changes in your mind but really HEAR it.
    When you improvise on the tune, use the above learned things to allow you to play thru a song that you really hear.
    Counting and calculating and thinking too much will always be a problem especially if you have trouble concentrating etc.
    Its hard to learn this way but its worth it.

    all the best
    Tim
    Tim shares what the rest of my teachers preach, that's why I searched him out when I moved up north.

    The more you avoid actively getting the song into your ears as an aural construct, the more likely you will never really KNOW the tune. Every great teacher has told me exactly what Tim is saying right here. The choice is to listen--to the advice and to the tune.

    I would say the opposite about what has been said about bebop improvisation. Especially for bebop, hear the melody in your head. Hear the changes. Sit with the tune until you can hear it away from your instrument.

    How do you go about hearing the tune? Keep it simple. Here was my process to internalizing "My Shining Hour"

    1. Sing the melody. Play the melody.

    2. Play the root motion. Roots of all chords.

    3. Sing the root motion. Play the melody on your guitar.

    4. Sing the melody, however complex as you play the root motion on your guitar.

    5. Play the roots and thirds as dyads. Separate the octave so you can hear it as harmony, but play the notes simultaneously.

    6. Play the thirds on your guitar as you sing the root movement.

    7. Play the root movement on the guitar as you sing the root movement.

    Sing. Play. Sing and Play.

    Let your voice teach you how to hear. I don't sing at gigs, but my voice helps me memorize the sound of the tune.

    Charlie Parker with Strings... You can hear the melody in his improvisation. Bebop didn't happen in a vacuum. Coltrane solo'ing over "My Shining Hour", you can hear the melody in his improvisation.

    Physicality may help you play the sounds, but you need to start with the primacy of sound to make any ground with learning the tune and learning how to make music.
    Last edited by PickingMyEars; 06-14-2021 at 10:52 PM.