-
Originally Posted by christianm77
Stumbling fingers still need love ...
-
01-27-2017 07:36 PM
-
Originally Posted by R Neil
-
Originally Posted by christianm77
Stumbling fingers still need love ...
-
Originally Posted by christianm77
-
Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
-
I think it would be hard to take a high school age student who likes jazz and has not yet mastered the fretboard, and tell him, "put the guitar down, we're going to work on solfege". Or, "put the guitar down, don't touch it, and transcribe this solo". I think it would be a rare student who would take to that approach, even though, in retrospect, it may be best.
That might work better for a college music major, but, there is an argument that the college student may have already passed the optimum age for really getting this in his brain.
My impression is that some people have more discriminating ears than others. If you're not genetically blessed, you may need plenty of ear training early on to compensate.
-
Originally Posted by diminix
How much is it worth for each of us to potentially shorten our learning path by several years? $100? $100,000 ????
-
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
As a teacher the one thing I find myself having to remind students when teaching a phrase or a melody by ear is that they have to be able to sing it correctly. If they can do this putting it on the guitar is actually pretty easy.
However, students naturally go to the guitar too early, half baked. They forget what they were trying to play and lose the thread.
Hence, the guitar world is full of aimless noodlers who don't audiate.
That might work better for a college music major, but, there is an argument that the college student may have already passed the optimum age for really getting this in his brain.
My impression is that some people have more discriminating ears than others. If you're not genetically blessed, you may need plenty of ear training early on to compensate.
Learning to hear music is an ongoing process.Last edited by christianm77; 01-28-2017 at 06:18 AM.
-
For OP - time/feel, ear training and "right path" imo.
Since the major goal is vague(playing awesome or smthin'), for starting players is difficult to see what will benefit them the most. There are different talents needed for jazz, all kinds of little skills and "skillets" needed to make it all work. Can't say what could be easy or hard because people are just so different - some can have almost a photographic memory and play back dozens of tunes, some just cant do it without a great effort. Some have good timing almost coded into their genes, some have to struggle. Or physical technique.. etc. Some can hear and play back stuff without ever doing ear training practice but those people are rare.
About the goal, maybe the best attitude is try to reach a point when you feel that this is ok now and the rest of the training just adds on top of it, adds value. Time/feel is a very big part of it. For me, the important thing was to practice as the current lick,scale,groove or ear training routine had to be well enough that my imagined audience would be pleased with it. Even if it was something 2 bars with a metronome. Might be another way for other people but imaging that these thingies that I spent 5-20 minutes on, had to be good enough for 10k-audience added some umph to the practice. That worked for me, but can't speak for others of course
-
Learning the Fretboard, but i guess that MAYBE someone can't really teach you that. It takes many years to master.
-
Originally Posted by christianm77
It's never too late to improve, but I think the brain is more plastic early in life. So it's good to get the foundation in early.
-
Originally Posted by pkirk
My brain is an analytics computational machine. I think in many ways that's all it does. And the total depth and breadth of the data needed to compute and analyze all this out is ... well ... rather like flaunting white powder in front of an addict.
But there's a vast difference between analytic comprehension and real-time ability to perform. I can develop quite decent mechanical skill on a guitar passage say, with whatever level of practice it takes to master.
I can craft melodic designs that when performed people like and find beautiful. Say, compositions for bell choirs, my own arrangement of a pop or rock tune on guitar. Carefully thought out, tested, and ... crafted.
Whether through high school and college on trombone or acting on a stage or playing guitar in rock/blues combos, or the last few years with jazz, there is a universally given adjective to any attempt at improvisation that I ever do: wooden. I can perfectly recreate the experience of a block of wood in any medium.
For so many of the players and listeners improvisation is the heart and nature of jazz. Often to the point that if one isn't good at improv, well ... one doesn't really play ... jazz ...
While it's not always intentional (for many, at least) what this can do is push someone who can be a very good ensemble performer, someone who can provide a great basis for others to ... shine? ... to push that person completely out of performing or attempting to participate in jazz at all.
The constant surrounding assumption of many of the Jazz players I've been around is that someone who can't improv just isn't the same as ... "us". Hanging with those who view one as ... a lesser creature? ... becomes a drag.
But that's the natural human state ... if one is focused on something whether it's sprinting or Opera vocal or jazz ... well, one naturally "places" others according to how one perceives their respective abilities in the same pursuit.
I've come to greatly appreciate the vocal stars who sincerely value the role of every singer in the chorus as a peer in the creation of the performance. And also the patience and care on this forum by so many on how they think through ... practice ... test ... develop ... their skills at improv playing.
Even if for me it's mental joy I'll never be able to do "live". What you can do, is to me a wonderful and joy to behold. And the gift of these discussions is a joy to my psyche.
Stumbling fingers still need love ...
-
it's more of a thing that is always present (for me at least). Knowledge of the fretboard, and knowing everything on the fretboard.
Oz
-
I think it's true that every good player I know recommends practicing with a metronome. However, several have admitted that they don't actually do it.
Also, there are different views about whether practicing with a click is the same as practicing with a drum machine.
Bottom line is that you should do what works for you. Also, remember that whatever path you choose, there's a great player who did it some other way.
One other point. The problem I identified in my own playing -- trying to play phrases faster than I could actually play them in time -- is something that I hear often in intermediate players.
The other thing I hear often is people trying to play polyrhythms and then, when they come back to the basic beat, they've moved it slightly. I think the process is that you decide to, say, do a fill, and while you're planning and executing it, your attention is more divided. Now you have to be aware of two rhythms at once -- and it's very easy to lose track of exactly where you are.
I think some people successfully address that problem with the metronome or drum machine. Others, though, come to rely on the machine and don't internalize the pulse. The remedy that occurs to me is recording and critiqueing.
-
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I was a pretty late starter (15) and I've come to terms with it. There are many people out there in the music world who went to specialist music schools and started their instruments at 6 and so on and have musicianship that astounds me.
However - they also call me for gigs, and are happy to play with me! So that must mean that on some level I offer something as a musician, even if my sheer technical musicianship will never be on a par.
TBH I wish I'd had the learning tools I have now at my disposal 10 years ago. It's a big deal to know things like ear training, sight singing can be learned in a structured, intelligent way. I've done the bulk of my work on musicianship over the past 5-10 years.
There are also strategies that are more, and less effective for certain things. For example:
- Interval training is less useful (n my experience) for transcription of tonal melodies than functional solfege style ear training.
- Resolving the notes in a chord is great for working out unfamiliar harmony, but the quickest way in jazz is often bass note/chord quality
- Comprehensible input is always easier to hear - for example a line you have heard elsewhere is easier to hear as a totality. A line which you haven't heard might need to be 'spelled out' using your functional ear training, say (Reading works the same way.)
-
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
-
My path has been very similar.
I don't think I was born with a great ear, and I didn't know that ear training existed until fairly recently.
So, I see some missed opportunity.
My teachers never mentioned ear training, but it wasn't at all clear back then what I was trying to accomplish. I took "guitar lessons", so they taught me things about the guitar. The idea that I would, years later, be playing in situations where I would be challenged rhythmically and need to identify oddball reharmonizations on the fly -- well, they had no reason to suspect it or try to prepare me for it. And, it may well be that, back then, they took a good ear for granted. With so little pedagogy available for jazz, the only people who could play it had to have good ears. Nowadays, it's possible to compensate for a tin ear with a lot of careful study.
Of course, it's always possible to progress. I know the difference between what I can do and what the pros I admire can do. That said, I do get called for gigs, so either I'm doing something right, or a lot of guitar players are out of town!
-
Originally Posted by christianm77
Please correct me if I am not remembering this correctly.
I know awesome players who claim to practice with a metronome and who are the furthest thing from stiff. My impression is that the metronome helps some people more than others.
-
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
A comment earlier mentioned how much someone learned from hearing recordings of themselves playing.
That is a very ... good ... and often challenging ... practice.
Golf teacher Hank Haney quotes Tiger Woods talking about the difference between feel and real.
You're hitting the ball to the right because your swing is coming across the ball. You need to change the path of your swing. Most people will make a HUGE change in their swing ... that is barely if any different from their normal one.
But ... it <felt> so different. Truth is they needed a change probably 10 times in degrees past what seemed excessive. They couldn't see or feel it.
Recording your playing ... it's rather a naked result. No excuses, you did what was recorded.
GREAT learning.
Stumbling fingers still need love ...
-
A comment earlier mentioned how much someone learned from hearing recordings of themselves playing.
That is a very ... good ... and often challenging ... practice.>>>
One of the things I learned quickly from listening to my own recordings on gigs and in jams was that I often found things seriously wrong with stuff that felt great at the moment I played it. That is, that I didn't accurately perceive what I was doing at the moment I was doing it. It continues to be true, but, I hope, not quite as often.
The realization that I couldn't accurately judge things while I was playing, well, it was sobering.
-
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
It ain't enjoyable much of the time. But sure is a learning experience.
As is getting out with others good at what you want to do, and doing it around, with, and together. If I were younger and had interest in public performance that would be very necessary.
Stumbling fingers still need love ...
-
thank you all for you comments and insights..this is a great topic
we all are learning at all stages of our lives..all of creativity is illusive..there are really few tools to expose the endless beauty in any artistic realm..here we try and understand the logic of music..and then interpret it on an illogical instrument that can seem calm and reasonable and turn on a dime and be the most frustrating PITA .. yet we push forward..taking years to learn music and its mechanics - theory and harmony - the melody-how to play it and how to hide it but let it peek through little at a time..
I watched a UTube of Oscar Peterson and Bill "Count" Basie .. doing duets..they played the blues..a fairly slow tempo..and of course it was beyond magic..but what came through was the clarity of their knowledge..there was no hesitation or doubt or concern of how it will sound to others..it was ego free..
this can not be taught..it happens when "you are the music" the term "it becomes you" .. all the learning we do over the years should have tangible results .. that at times I feel the music flow through me to the degree that I cry..and I am thankful that I have the discipline to practice when I don't want to and push myself to learn something new..
someone here mentioned playing a piece and figuring out the names of the chords after..yes..after years of mechanical practice to know the forms and their inversions and voice leading aspects and have them become music and not exercises..
I agree that listening must be one main aspect of learning music .. having met musicians that may say.."hey lets jam.." and go on a 10 min fantasy solo on their own..they cant hear what they are playing or have played..or what I played .. but they consider themselves musicians..such is so..
for those of us who teach..and I am one..it is important to be aware of the students abilities at present..trying to explain why your teaching them a certain chord progression or any part of music..and if they are young and want to "learn fast" so they can play like steve vai..in two weeks...how to deal with that reality ..knowing they wont practice and feel they are not making progress after three lessons..
I come to this forum to learn how others learn music and the guitar..there are some very talented players here and I am glad to have a chance to exchange ideas with you..
-
Originally Posted by snailspace
-
Not getting lost / always being on the right measure
And somebody else said this one already....
"The hard part is when the pianist starts reharmonizing on the fly and you have to figure out what he's doing so that you can contribute something."
TRUE DAT!!!! and it happens all the time.
Being able to change key is pretty easy on most stringed instruments. IMO anyways.
-
Originally Posted by goldenwave77
Henriksen Bud 6 w/ gig bag
Today, 03:29 PM in For Sale