On the importance of basic scales and arpeggios

**targuit** · 06-17-2016, 10:53 AM

Ok, no Mas! (I don't speak Spanish. Just Italian and French and pidgin English.)

But I think I give up! Everyone forget about actually recording real performances.

Jeff, when you proposed Rose Room, I did not even know the tune. Within minutes I put up the chord progression, and I tried to record the melody by playing along on my Yamaha synth. I don't have Transcribe, so I did not try to write out Goodman's and Christian's solos, nor that of Hampton. But I understood every note, chord, and phrase played. Have no doubt that if I devoted time to actually transcribing that tune, I could play it note for note. But why do that? Frankly, the tune is fairly pedestrian, even the musicians' performance is great. Instead I suggested playing off the chord progression - creating an "original" improvisation as a solo track. And that went nowhere.

So you cannot think of one Jobim, Kern, Arlen, Rogers....tune to play? Just Rose Room?

Last night I recorded But Beautiful by Jimmy Van Heusen. Is that too easy? JVH? Don't like his arpeggios?

When I express my opinion, I'm accused of "pontificating" if it does not concord with the jazz catechism here. If I joke or satirize something, I'm "talking down to others". If I complement others, that goes ignored.

The fact is I enjoy the discussions. I'm not a troll. But I do have a few degrees and graduated with BA in English and obtained my MD, so stupid or inarticulate, I am not. And I do believe that is resented by some. I respect many players here, especially those who put their performances out there. Because in the end, the performance is what counts. Not especially much how you got there.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-17-2016, 10:59 AM

Jay, you gotta get over yourself man. Nobody "resents your level of education."

Again (now for the third time) I picked Rose Room because we were talking about Charlie Christian. And all I ever suggested was to blow on the changes! How can we have a conversation if you don't read my posts?

If I really wanted to challenge you, I'd have picked a Wayne Shorter tune

Do you dig what I'm saying about just spontaneously playing a tune? Not making a transcription in Sibelius, not learning somebody's version "note for note." Just playing over a tune in a jazz style.

And you really don't understand the arpeggio thing, do you?

**targuit** · 06-17-2016, 11:03 AM

Jeff - for the last time.

The recordings I make are unedited (no digital comping) takes of me playing guitar, piano, and singing. First or second takes. I don't take a week to play a "polished" song and recording. For me it is harder to create the slide show on Windows Movie Maker than to record the music, which takes me less than an hour. I'm getting better at Movie Maker, though I still hate the software.

I record with a $60 MXL large diaphragm condenser mic through a legacy Korg D1200 digital standalone recorder in my living room on a $250 Yamaha classical guitar. I don't have an archtop, but I occasionally use my Godin LGX guitar through a crappy tiny Vox amp.

And with panoply of high end equipment, I come up with this. Listen with headphones for best audio.

Why don't you guys try doing the same song? Or transcribe my improvised solo. After all, the performance is the thing. I'd love to hear your performances. Lawson, Jeff, Peter....

**ronjazz** · 06-17-2016, 11:10 AM

Lotta scales and arpeggios, there, Jay. For what that's worth.

**joe2758** · 06-17-2016, 11:11 AM

You keep saying "transcribe my solo." can you expand on what that has to do with what's being discussed, or why we would want to?

**targuit** · 06-17-2016, 11:17 AM

Let's hear your version of Shadow of Your Smile, Jeff - vocals and guitar. Remember it is the total package.

Blowing over Rose Room? So which is it? You want an accurate version of Goodman's and Christian's solo? Or do you want to improvise over a mediocre song like Rose Room?

If you want me to record - today - a solo performance of a song, pick something that is recognizable to most people. The alphabet of songs starts at A and ends with Z. Could you manage to pick a song that most of us know as a common standard to 'blow over"? Just makes it easier to pick out the wheat from the chaff.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-17-2016, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

Jeff - for the last time.

The recordings I make are unedited (no digital comping) takes of me playing guitar, piano, and singing. First or second takes. I don't take a week to play a "polished" song and recording. For me it is harder to create the slide show on Windows Movie Maker than to record the music, which takes me less than an hour. I'm getting better at Movie Maker, though I still hate the software.

I record with a $60 MXL large diaphragm condenser mic through a legacy Korg D1200 digital standalone recorder in my living room on a $250 Yamaha classical guitar. I don't have an archtop, but I occasionally use my Godin LGX guitar through a crappy tiny Vox amp.

And with panoply of high end equipment, I come up with this. Listen with headphones for best audio.

Why don't you guys try doing the same song? Or transcribe my improvised solo. After all, the performance is the thing. I'd love to hear your performances. Lawson, Jeff, Peter....

I'll play the damn song if you really want. But again, this isn't about my playing. I'm not out there making claims against what people have been doing for 80 years.

I also get your performance is not "comped" (There's another word for ya) but what I'm saying is if we are talking about guitar playing--I don't need a full song. I don't need to hear you sing, or play rhythm for yourself. I just want to hear you improvise in a jazz style on a jazz tune.

Again, we were talking about CC. So lets say you were called upon to play a swing tune in that style...where do you start? Thats all im talking about.

Put on a backing track, sit in front of a smart phone or webcam, and blow. Go in cold, even. Play something other than your favorite tunes. It's fun. Try it. And then we can talk about what went through your mind.

**targuit** · 06-17-2016, 11:26 AM

Jeff, pick a song from A to Z, hopefully one that is not unknown.

Here is another link - I Fall In Love Too Easily. Recorded in less than thirty minutes. Play and sing this one.
Please note the "arpeggios" in the rhythm part. Or am I doing wrong?

**mr. beaumont** · 06-17-2016, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

Let's hear your version of Shadow of Your Smile, Jeff - vocals and guitar. Remember it is the total package.

Blowing over Rose Room? So which is it? You want an accurate version of Goodman's and Christian's solo? Or do you want to improvise over a mediocre song like Rose Room?

If you want me to record - today - a solo performance of a song, pick something that is recognizable to most people. The alphabet of songs starts at A and ends with Z. Could you manage to pick a song that most of us know as a common standard to 'blow over"? Just makes it easier to pick out the wheat from the chaff.

Why would I sing? This isn't the "jazz vocal forum."

Rose Room is a mediocre tune? Why, because you don't know it? Personally, I can't believe anybody who plays jazz guitar isn't familiar with CC and Benny's version of that, but whatever.

What defines well known anyway?

This is going in circles.

**targuit** · 06-17-2016, 11:29 AM

So you want a solo guitar performance (chord melody) or over a (guitar) backing track?

Pick a song or put a list of four or five well known tunes so everyone can pick one or two to play. We'll see about arpeggios and improvisation and blowing over the changes.

**lawson-stone** · 06-17-2016, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

Jeff - for the last time.

The recordings I make are unedited (no digital comping) takes of me playing guitar, piano, and singing. First or second takes. I don't take a week to play a "polished" song and recording. For me it is harder to create the slide show on Windows Movie Maker than to record the music, which takes me less than an hour. I'm getting better at Movie Maker, though I still hate the software.

I record with a $60 MXL large diaphragm condenser mic through a legacy Korg D1200 digital standalone recorder in my living room on a $250 Yamaha classical guitar. I don't have an archtop, but I occasionally use my Godin LGX guitar through a crappy tiny Vox amp.

And with panoply of high end equipment, I come up with this. Listen with headphones for best audio.

Why don't you guys try doing the same song? Or transcribe my improvised solo. After all, the performance is the thing. I'd love to hear your performances. Lawson, Jeff, Peter....

Jay I think we've been over this ground, you and I. I took up your challenge on "Alfie" a song I didn't know and didn't like, worked it up as a chord-melody style solo, and posted the clip.

I don't recall seeing yours.

I have a pile of YouTube videos of my lame attempts to do chord-melody and improvisation on standards. I even made one sad attempt on the "practical standards" to do "There Will never Be Another You." So my stuff is out there.

YOU are the one we have not heard from in a straight-ahead improvised soloing in a jazz style over changes.

I regret that just as I begin to think you have something to offer, you go off on one these tangents.

For the record, your education does not bother me: PhD Yale, 14 ancient languages in 8 different scripts including Egyptian Hieroglyphic and Mesopotamian cuneiform... published articles in peer-reviewed journals and books... I'm not intimidated by education.

That's not the problem.

**Reg** · 06-17-2016, 11:30 AM

Man... this starting to sound like a lot of.....Girl Talk

**pamosmusic** · 06-17-2016, 11:41 AM

Sigh ...

https://soundcloud.com/pamosmusic/it-could-happen-to-you-bnd-526

... Reg ... that was awesome.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-17-2016, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

So you want a solo guitar performance (chord melody) or over a (guitar) backing track?

Pick a song or put a list of four or five well known tunes so everyone can pick one or two to play. We'll see about arpeggios and improvisation and blowing over the changes.

Improvise a damn jazz guitar solo. No chord melody, no arranging, no vocals. Backing track is fine.

We do this every month in the practical standards thread. How about that? June's tune is "I'll remember April."

Man, I'm sorry I stepped in this one again.

**jasonc** · 06-17-2016, 11:49 AM

I just sat down and picked a tune on Irealbook and am reading the changes off my phone. It's a straightforward swing tune at a medium tempo. It's not great but this is me just sight reading changes...no arrangement...no Sibelius...no Transcribe!...I'm just blowing over changes that I've never played before. The backing track is just the Irealbook playing on my phone run through my Quilter and the guitar in channel two recorded with the crappy laptop mic.

**targuit** · 06-17-2016, 11:53 AM

Reg - Is this you on Girl Talk? Love it! This is a good song. We could do this if all are in agreement. Of course, you did have the advantage of a great backing trio here. Fabulous stuff. I can try to put down an organ and bass track. Percussion is hard to replicate. Good suggestion. But this is a great tune to blow over. This will be my choice. Thanks, Reg!

Lawson - I know you are a smart guy who can string sentences together quite articulately. So you are not intimidated and my Egyptian is not so polished these days.

Why did you pick such arcane languages anyway? The only reason I want to do this experiment is because in this forum a dissenting opinion is not tolerated unless you show you have the goods. I'm not intimidated either.

Sorry about not putting up Alfie. My only home recording of that is not a solo chord melody, but I will get on it.

See, in the end, the play is the thing. Since so much of the street cred here depends on one's playing to get some respect for your opinions, this is the way to do it. Besides I love this tune. I have never recorded it, so it will be a first. I may have to use my Godin LGX which I cannot tweak to replicate an archtop tone. But this is a great song. If everyone plays the same tune, it is a form of 'equalizer'. I love what you played on this one, Reg. Best of your stuff I've ever heard.

Don't ever call yourself a "journeyman" jazz guitarist again. This is first rate.

I'm going to do my best to show what I can do. I will record percussion, bass, and organ on my Yamaha synth ($210) cheapo. I was just playing along with some organ voices. Cool song! Lucky for you there are no vocals....

destinytot · 06-17-2016, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

PhD Yale, 14 ancient languages in 8 different scripts including Egyptian Hieroglyphic and Mesopotamian cuneiform... published articles in peer-reviewed journals and books... I'm not intimidated by education.

But can you crack a whip like Indiana Jones?

**joe2758** · 06-17-2016, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Improvise a damn jazz guitar solo. No chord melody, no arranging, no vocals. Backing track is fine.

We do this every month in the practical standards thread. How about that? June's tune is "I'll remember April."

Man, I'm sorry I stepped in this one again.

Side note, is the practical standards supposed to be soloing on backing track? I was actually going to do a "chord melody" thing

destinytot · 06-17-2016, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Improvise a damn jazz guitar solo. No chord melody, no arranging, no vocals. Backing track is fine.

We do this every month in the practical standards thread. How about that? June's tune is "I'll remember April."

Man, I'm sorry I stepped in this one again.

"So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly to..."

**lawson-stone** · 06-17-2016, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Reg - Is this you on Girl Talk? Love it! This is a good song. We could do this if all are in agreement. Of course, you did have the advantage of a trio here. Fabulous stuff. I can try to put down an organ and bass track. Percussion is hard to replicate. Good suggestion. But this is a great tune to blow over. This will be my choice. Thanks, Reg!

Lawson - I know you are a smart guy who can string sentences together quite articulately. So you are not intimidated and my Egyptian is not so polished these days.

Why did you pick such arcane languages anyway? The only reason I want to do this experiment is because in this forum a dissenting opinion is not tolerated unless you show you have the goods. I'm not intimidated either.

Sorry about not putting up Alfie. My only home recording of that is not a solo chord melody, but I will get on it.

See, in the end, the play is the thing. Since so much of the street cred here depends on one's playing to get some respect for your opinions, this is the way to do it. Besides I love this tune. I have never recorded it, so it will be a first. I may have to use my Godin LGX which I cannot tweak to replicate an archtop tone. But this is a great song. If everyone plays the same tune, it is a form of 'equalizer'. I love what you played on this one, Reg. Best of your stuff I've ever heard.

Don't ever call yourself a "journeyman" jazz guitarist again. I'm going to do my best to show what I can do.

I am not responding to anything you all for until you deliver. You tell everyone else to do this or that, then you comment on their good efforts, but you never take your own challenge.

I'm with Mr. B.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-17-2016, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

Side note, is the practical standards supposed to be soloing on backing track? I was actually going to do a "chord melody" thing

No, it's very open. I rarely play to tracks when I participate.

**lawson-stone** · 06-17-2016, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

But can you crack a whip like Indiana Jones?

That's a good way to lose an eye!

Real archaeology isn't anywhere near as exciting as all that.

You can see some indication of what we do here on our site Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/AbelBethMaacah/?fref=ts

**joe2758** · 06-17-2016, 12:10 PM

"for internet forum peace like flame last just a little while"

destinytot · 06-17-2016, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

That's a good way to lose an eye!

Real archaeology isn't anywhere near as exciting as all that.

You can see some indication of what we do here on our site Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/AbelBethMaacah/?fref=ts

Couldn't find emoticons for awe, admiration and respect - but I hope this will do.

**targuit** · 06-17-2016, 12:13 PM

Lawson - I just said that while I have never recorded this tune before and it is not in my repertoire, I intend to record I today playing all the parts on my $200 Yamaha cheapo synth. Percussion, organ, bass and live guitar. No archtop, so the Godin won't sound as good as Reg's in terms of tone. And it will be through a garbage Vox mini amp recorded by my high class $60 MXL 990 mic.

Girl Talk can be played as a chord melody, but you can't "blow" on the tune as Jeff requested. And Reg will be a hard act to follow, but I intend to try.

Side note - one thing that will be a bit easier is that we just got my son a new laptop for his HS graduation - top male student in his class. Couple of girls edged him out. In any case that frees up my desktop where my Yamaha synth is so I can work on this.

Reg - Your recording is looping on my computer. You are going to have to give us some info on where to get more of your music on CD. Love it.